Hardware, Drones & Purpose in Tech

00:00:00: when you make a movie, don't get on the set and start acting to see where it goes.

00:00:05: You write a script of your story or costumes... ...and everything!

00:00:12: Once all that is there then you record an act.

00:00:16: So how crazy in software world can we just go ahead and start coding stuff?

00:00:25: Welcome to Hello!

00:00:27: The podcast where we break tech bubbles before they break us and where we talk to people who make tech more humane.

00:01:06: Long and deep conversations about software engineering, product development leadership.

00:01:10: And the future of technology.

00:01:12: I always enjoy these exchanges.

00:01:14: an over-the-years have come to see you safe as both a role model and a mentor.

00:01:19: today will be talking about hardware and software robotics Engineering in Product Development AI and also Purpose and Tech.

00:01:27: We'll also discuss Wingtrust journey and use of experience growing from an engineer To an engineering leader.

00:01:33: Let's dive in.

00:01:42: Welcome Yusef to the HelloFiftyFifty world podcast.

00:01:44: Thank you, Lisa!

00:01:48: A few months ago, you've recommended me to read a book called Build from Tony Fidel that I really enjoyed reading.

00:01:55: So thank you for that!

00:01:56: Tony Fadel is the father of the iPod and iPhone as kind-of hardware expert And recently i have heard him say in a podcast That with the raise of AI Hardware was becoming more interesting & important again You are also in hardware.

00:02:10: Are you glad these days that your actually developing hardware products?

00:02:14: I am definitely glad that i'm developing hardware.

00:02:17: I think nothing has actually changed, and just glad the world starts to see it this way.

00:02:23: We at Winkra.

00:02:25: people always say Hardware is hard.

00:02:27: That scared off a lot of people from starting or investing in a hardware business And we would be like who should build hardware then?

00:02:36: Someone needs to build hardware.

00:02:40: Drone companies that just want to build software for drones, but they don't wanna touch the hardware because it's a bit scary.

00:02:45: And we would be like yeah someone needs do this so let's do it and I think the world is starting to realize that again now also.

00:02:52: Yeah It definitely an exciting time For Hardware.

00:02:55: So Is it actually harder than software?

00:02:58: Definitely makes your business overall more complex and i'd say yes its harder.

00:03:04: not to say that being smarter does hardwares just complexity of hardware, is it much less forgiving?

00:03:10: A mistake costs you more.

00:03:12: You need to know things before putting them out with software so that they can run faster and break things.

00:03:17: You could redeploy a fix in one or two weeks whereas hardwares have big problems if you didn't catch something when it goes off.

00:03:24: That's the complexity for your supply chain and relationships With all your suppliers.

00:03:30: If on single screw you cannot source you cannot manufacture the whole device comes with a lot of capital investment to do that, build the factory together production team etc.

00:03:40: So it's more complexity.

00:03:43: And so what kind of hardware are you actually building at Winkja?

00:03:45: We're building an aerial robot An autonomous aerial robot and we use that to map large areas.

00:03:54: You can think about basically any physical assets That might have public infrastructure, private assets, construction sites, agricultural fields etc.

00:04:04: and what we are doing with our drone is digitizing that.

00:04:07: So, we create up-to-date models of whatever asset you have so that you can have data to base your decisions on.

00:04:13: And what components?

00:04:15: a part of the drone?

00:04:16: when you think about hardware?

00:04:18: You have sensors and actuators and compute piece.

00:04:21: That's most basic framework for robot.

00:04:24: It needs eyes & ears it need arms & legs.

00:04:28: For us thats motors servos or actuator a sensor suite of accelerometers, gyroscopes magnetometers boroscopes airspeed sensors yeah something like maybe ten sensors or something.

00:04:45: and that's how you create the input an output.

00:04:47: And then the compute in middle is the brain basically.

00:04:51: You also started building software?

00:04:52: Of course!

00:04:53: That integrate with data The drone is capturing.

00:04:57: So How was journey from hardware to software for you?

00:05:01: Did it need sort of a mindset shift?

00:05:03: Yes, that's very good question.

00:05:05: I mean first to make it clear.

00:05:06: speaking as hardware person i was always the software engineer in The Hardware Company.

00:05:10: so working on the software That is On The Drone still consider this hardware In The End because It Is A Drone Piece.

00:05:15: but yeah you are right.

00:05:16: like few years ago we started new journey and making a Software Platform And More Classical Software Sense Cloud Platform Assas Offering.

00:05:24: I think We Had A Lot Of Knowledge About How To Code And How To Build Software.

00:05:28: So We Didn't Start From Scratch.

00:05:29: But what we realized is that, we need to untangle ourselves from a lot of the constraints with hardware.

00:05:35: We used to release our software before starting Winter Cloud... ...we released maybe every six or seven weeks and then took a moment and said if you're really building a software product.. ..you have to bring it back into a way faster cycle!

00:05:49: we pretty aggressively shifted to a one-week release cycle and that's been now two and half years maybe.

00:05:55: We've been on that, it is working really well.

00:05:57: so you have one week sprints.

00:05:58: at the end of every sprint we deploy into production And thats just a shift in day today.

00:06:03: work that has happened.

00:06:06: Do see an actual difference between people who are hardware engineers or software engineers?

00:06:12: I think software engineers are a bit lazier by nature.

00:06:18: No, I think it's actually yeah for software.

00:06:21: You're in a very privileged position as the software engineer.

00:06:25: you sit at your desk and get to make things easier and faster and automate them And you can automate even your own workflow and have this like vast space of open-source libraries Best practices all that stuff you've access too.

00:06:41: just sitting on your desk connect these things and feel really powerful.

00:06:47: You can basically automate away anything, and maybe that's what I mean with lazy.

00:06:51: And with hardware engineers you don't have the luxury usually to stand up go through a workshop put some stuff together saw something see if it works.

00:06:59: Maybe we need spend whole day just dropping a box from some height To make sure the box doesn't break.

00:07:06: A software engineer would say like yeah i'm going write script for this But harder engineer cannot so really get your hands dirty.

00:07:15: work much more with your hands.

00:07:17: I don't have that experience, unfortunately i've only worked in South Assam one of the lazy ones maybe also with a drone...I think something that I find quite cool is if you need to test the drone.

00:07:26: You actually fly the drone right?

00:07:28: To become a drone pilot as well.

00:07:29: How was it?

00:07:30: That's really cool Really fun!

00:07:33: I mean..i think you get used to it If you're doing every day But It is astounding The experience for people when they do this first time.

00:07:40: So if we have new employees in their first week, they need to go out and fly once or if you have interviews or demos.

00:07:46: And we just realize how this moment where the drone takes off everyone is like wow!

00:07:52: You're developing all of that stuff but it's in the physical world.

00:07:55: This device is now lifting off flying into air doing stuff autonomously.

00:07:59: People are always in awe when they see that take-off moment.

00:08:03: That's really awesome.

00:08:04: You actually come from the robotics world, right?

00:08:06: So you study robotics at ETH and that is also how we got into Wingtra.

00:08:10: Can you share a little bit why in the robotics worlds... At the moment it's very exciting time to be there especially in Zurich.

00:08:19: In Zurich definitely We have so much talent And I can say its world-class talents.

00:08:27: Like for many years people said, Zurich is the or Switzerland as a Silicon Valley of robotics.

00:08:32: Or like we in Switzerland try to promote this term but I think really that kind of talent you have at ETH and EPFL Is world-class?

00:08:40: And People come from the Bay Area To find these people.

00:08:44: They sometimes Have to move their entire offices here To just be close to These people.

00:08:48: so The quality i Think Of education and research It's extremely high.

00:08:52: Also the approach to entrepreneurship That has been encouraged At ETH.

00:08:57: You can look at the amount of spinoffs coming out, like everybody is thinking how could I make my research project into something useful.

00:09:03: So that's amazing!

00:09:04: Of course on the downside when companies start to grow and mature you don't have the same volumes of funding or risk appetite in a more societal level.

00:09:14: so unfortunately typical trajectory starts small in Switzerland.

00:09:18: then if you outgrow Switzerland

00:09:22: We actually had a guest on here in the previous episode who is founder, moved to San Francisco partly exactly for that reason.

00:09:30: For Vintra you've never moved to

00:09:32: U.S.,

00:09:32: stayed in Switzerland?

00:09:33: Why is it so?

00:09:34: I think

00:09:34: we stayed in Sweden as part of our journey.

00:09:37: right now Our focus has always been on the US market.

00:09:42: That's where we see most potential and also hunger to deploy these new technologies To make industry more efficient.

00:09:50: You have like one huge country with the same legislation.

00:09:53: So definitely that's our focus market and I wouldn't say we didn't go to US, if you look at Winkronauts a huge portion of them actually operate and live in

00:10:01: U.S.,

00:10:02: just their headquarters right now are in Zurich And i cannot tell from future it might move as well because I do think really the natural pull whether or not it takes u there.

00:10:11: Yeah Definitely I would say Winkra is US & Zurich.

00:10:15: But you had production on drones?

00:10:18: we produce right now in Zurich.

00:10:20: Can you explain a bit how you actually assemble the drone?

00:10:24: So, basically have like... You can imagine a supply chain of hundreds of parts and they come from all around the world.

00:10:33: And then there's quality control steps that need to go through sensor calibrations things.

00:10:39: Our production team has a fun time, actually.

00:10:41: Because every drone that goes to customer they need go out and fly wants just confirm everything is intact before it goes out.

00:10:47: So basically you assemble, calibrate quality control And then take the bus Go into field Fly the drones Come back Go through more quality checks Pack them And ship to world.

00:10:59: I quickly want to come back to the robotics field and why it's such an exciting time.

00:11:03: To be in that field, working there.

00:11:06: can you share a bit more?

00:11:07: what technologies have enabled this shift?

00:11:10: Definitely now with LLMs and AI.

00:11:12: There has been this focus on robotics.

00:11:14: It comes from few different places.

00:11:16: First of all i think AI is going accelerate how smart robots are in a crazy way.

00:11:23: So all of the core machine learning that used to be built in the past, I think now is completely accelerated by gen AI.

00:11:31: and i think the other aspect it somehow robotics goes both ways.

00:11:35: so robotics giving life to AI because suddenly people are seeing how powerful this whole thing with chat gpt and cloud they're already thinking about what's next.

00:11:47: Yeah, it's not like the moment that can go out of my computer and do stuff in the physical world.

00:11:52: That's what's next.

00:11:53: so there is a lot of excitement about it again.

00:11:55: I think pulling back to reality building hardware as hard takes very long time.

00:11:59: And i'm glad about this excitement now because it brings an interest and interests bring funds To invest into these projects.

00:12:06: but I think road make them actually get up working on the physical work.

00:12:09: thats still a really long road for all fields of robotics.

00:12:13: Do you foresee any couple years?

00:12:17: Robots will be building a Vintra drone?

00:12:20: Yeah, not unlikely.

00:12:22: Cannot tell you... I mean also it's very wide spectrum between like a robot which already most of professional factories work with factory robots today or if there is an actual humanoid robot doing stuff in the factory i cannot tell how fast that will come.

00:12:36: yeah definitely manufacturing going to revolutionize again.

00:12:40: You shared already a little bit about how you do things at Winktra, that people fly drones and they assemble drones which stands very exciting.

00:12:46: Also share with me did your recently experimented with AI during one of your hackathons?

00:12:52: And I found out quite interesting because he really create that space intentionally for people to play around with it.

00:12:58: How was the experience?

00:13:00: It is awesome honestly so i think yeah you mentioned this pace To experimental learn.

00:13:05: That's something Extremely important to me personally, I think we got to a point at Winkro where you're thinking about are We still innovative enough?

00:13:13: I mean as a startup You're naturally inovative and then at some point.

00:13:16: Your thinking about this innovation piece And how can actually like what is blocking us from getting there?

00:13:22: so we've created the space.

00:13:23: I mean regardless of AI itself.

00:13:25: we have This ritual.

00:13:26: we do now every three months.

00:13:28: wing labs It's called So maybe on a bigger company would have like research lab as a separate organization, but for us it's every three months.

00:13:36: We take a couple of days just step back from everything and take time to learn an experiment and fail and explore the ideas that might not work tomorrow about learning.

00:13:46: so we reused kind of that space past few months To make sure that were also learning alot on AI side because thats typical Learning hurdle.

00:13:54: So you're gonna get good at if don't spend your time learning.

00:13:57: But the learning slows down in our day-to-day works I think is why this place was perfect.

00:14:02: It's like, let's go crazy three days.

00:14:04: Break whatever you want just make sure your using it and learning and figuring out the value of it.

00:14:11: And what kind things do people build?

00:14:13: There are twenty-five projects or something.

00:14:15: but I remember one team member actually wanted to do some motor testing for a hardware drone prototype To qualify different motors if they would be fit for the prototype he is building.

00:14:29: You connected that with cloud code and ran through a qualification stack.

00:14:35: And then the motors started turning, and he was like oh wow!

00:14:39: Cloud is actually spinning the boaters now?

00:14:42: And cloud's doing my hardware test.

00:14:44: I think that moment it pretty freaky but exciting Beginning of this year.

00:14:50: obviously software development transformed.

00:14:52: We wanted to make sure we're at edge for that Because i think around February when Q one wing labs and then we made a challenge where we said like for the next three days Let's see if we can do all our projects without writing A single line of code ourselves.

00:15:07: because I wanted to test that idea little bit Like there was it wasn't in the news, and like Spotify stopped writing code themselves And stuff like that.

00:15:14: So let's test it.

00:15:15: Um, and we were all a bit like okay is this gonna work?

00:15:19: Let's try.

00:15:20: i mean why not?

00:15:21: We can break things in these three dates.

00:15:22: so let's try by now.

00:15:24: We've recently, a few weeks ago made a poll to ask how people are working.

00:15:29: And it is seventy percent of lines-of-code not written by people and It's not one hundred yet.

00:15:36: I don't necessarily think that has to be goal But its just crazy How fast we then get through the learning cycle.

00:15:42: Everyone is changing their way of work so fast.

00:15:45: Really interesting to hear these numbers.

00:15:47: Maybe stay on that for bit because also talked about how software engineering will change This change in your teams, what does it do to the people that are on this job and now not writing these lines of codes anymore?

00:16:03: How is changing the software profession.

00:16:06: That's a very good question but I think also when i'm seeing you know team its very individual.

00:16:13: It's very personal anyway for some people actually A very personal topic because thats the craft they learned They got out school to do this and they had a career, then suddenly everything is changing.

00:16:29: And different people are taking it differently.

00:16:31: What I am seeing?

00:16:32: some people extremely excited and thriving.

00:16:35: Usually that comes together with being more attached to the why behind what you're building.

00:16:40: So if your not necessarily interested in the craft itself or syntax Or small design patterns but actually more interesting than what you were building These people having best time of their life They're now like just accelerated and they can reach results faster.

00:16:56: And the same applies to me, I've been the rustiest coder ever almost gave up on it... ...and this year i'm getting back-to-life and empowered by new technology.

00:17:06: Yeah!

00:17:06: Then for other people It's a matter of realizing that the craft is changing.

00:17:12: You have take some decision whether you want embrace this dynamism And think more about the why, I think at a higher level.

00:17:20: Realize that it's not about code itself but bigger picture and you can put yourself in this mindset then fits you or maybe realize its' not right?

00:17:29: So people were horseback riding in past.

00:17:32: cars came along.

00:17:33: some still like to horse back ride But not bring things from A-B anymore.

00:17:37: It is just good to reflect everyone personally for themselves.

00:17:42: Yeah definitely A super exciting, interesting time.

00:17:45: But it's also a scary time and you're in the leadership position.

00:17:48: so how do you support your teams on that transition?

00:17:51: And this change is coming or already here.

00:17:54: I think the culture that you have defines a lot already.

00:17:57: That's already the premise Like we try at Winkra our best to have a culture based on trustful relationships between people Between everybody in the organization.

00:18:08: It's almost like a spider web of trust.

00:18:10: In my mental model.

00:18:12: That's what builds a team and the culture.

00:18:14: So if you have that already, I think your ready at step one.

00:18:16: it is little bit easier.

00:18:17: The other thing i would say perhaps Is A lot of people are taking this AI transformation from different sides so some Are taking as very top down things right?

00:18:27: You have executive teams sitting together And saying like how we gonna get through the transformation As fast as possible.

00:18:33: We need to enforce certain things.

00:18:36: They're doing in all kinds ways.

00:18:38: From tomorrow onwards, you have to use AI or we're going put up a leaderboard and see who consumes the most tokens.

00:18:44: And were gonna incentivize

00:18:45: that.".

00:18:46: I don't think... ...I neither thing.

00:18:48: this is healthy.

00:18:49: nor do i think it's needed because technology itself so exciting.

00:18:53: So let people just seed value in get excited by themselves.

00:18:57: Don't go force them.

00:18:58: try change until tomorrow how they work That more balancing act.

00:19:03: where right now To walk that line.

00:19:05: make sure coming to the technology because they realize that it's making their life easier and It's making there day-to-day work easy, so you can see more value.

00:19:14: Yeah absolutely I think I agree with everything You said around that house?

00:19:19: So don't think like a top level strategy of like everybody has to use it now is gonna Work.

00:19:24: i think its also a bit difficult for people That are struggling With The change To be forced to Change Quickly Because Everything Is moving so fast.

00:19:34: How do you personally stay sane while this transformation is happening?

00:19:42: So I actually did realize myself that i'm getting a bit into the psychosis, they call it these days AI psychosis.

00:19:51: Not on a clinical level just like using it all time reading about it all the time listening to podcasts vibe coding and then at some point pulls you into this cycle.

00:20:03: You want more and more, so at some point I realized like AI detox-I wanna take my Sunday off not use it, think about or discuss with anyone because that's the other thing.

00:20:14: whenever we meet a friend these days It is hard to stay away from an AI topic.

00:20:19: It was bit like Covid.

00:20:20: back then We would meet someone suddenly talking about Covid.

00:20:23: now everyone talks about AI.

00:20:26: So i need distance yourself come back to reality get into the offline world again a bit, maybe go for a hike or something.

00:20:35: Make sure that you're taking it in a healthy way.

00:20:38: Yeah absolutely.

00:20:39: I also recently read That It's so important to not offload The tasks.

00:20:44: they give you joy To AI?

00:20:46: i think thats A very personal choice.

00:20:48: of course Some people enjoy doing some things and others Not too much right.

00:20:53: And if You automate everything that you Enjoy from your work to AI, then you will not like your work at the end of day.

00:21:01: I think that's very obvious but i think a lot people just jump in and they try to use it everywhere

00:21:08: right?

00:21:08: Yeah!

00:21:08: It is hard because what we were saying before if...it depends on which part gives you joy And If its actually writing clean codes line by line Then it IS a bit tricky Because that is going away.

00:21:26: I think it's a bit of, also you need to then find new joy somewhere else and reflect for yourself.

00:21:33: Where do i want to find joy in my job if this part is getting automated away?

00:21:36: For some people they're more lucky because it kind of aligned directly with.

00:21:39: maybe that was the tedious part they didn't wanna do.

00:21:41: And for others They would need to reflect and see which way to go.

00:21:47: And so for you Also recently said that You actually enjoy very much these changes And your role has also aligned in a little bit right over the last few weeks and months.

00:21:58: So you're not just VP engineering, but you are also leading product at Vintra?

00:22:03: Can you share how that transition was as well with Vintre?

00:22:06: You're aligning the engineering principles more like Product Crafts.

00:22:11: Yeah!

00:22:11: That's very good question.

00:22:12: I mean we were beginning of this journey so maybe ask me one year things will have looked different already.

00:22:19: But i do think First of all, it's a very interesting time because I myself don't know where these roles are going.

00:22:27: Product managers designers engineers You have different schools of thought.

00:22:31: These days some people say we're just gonna call ourselves builders Lovable i think just renamed all their titles in the company to technical staff and non-technical stuff?

00:22:41: And if I subscribe that bit strange but what has definitely happened is roles Are changing so you need to be a bit flexible and I think for me It's a lot about thinking about the core value of what are you trying to achieve and not like, What is my day-to-day role?

00:22:56: Like it's not product management.

00:22:58: It isn't not about managing a backlog.

00:23:00: that's what your doing maybe spending some time doing but its'not what they're trying.

00:23:05: do find value for their customer.

00:23:07: In this time I think most important thing Is keep people separated in those functions But bring them closer together And then observe whats happening.

00:23:15: Try take more organically.

00:23:17: So, maybe the designer might start to write some UI code and maybe engineer will realize they need do a customer test for their building.

00:23:28: And product manager would realise that he needs fix about it right?

00:23:31: All of them may suddenly get access these tools.

00:23:35: so I would my mental model is more like try bring people closer together.

00:23:39: observe where this going organically.

00:23:41: just focus on core value and purpose of what you're trying to achieve.

00:23:45: Yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes actually?

00:23:47: I also think the roles are definitely merging a bit or they are expanding all of them And i recently heard that term product architect which is a blend of a product owner and the software architect.

00:24:00: I was like yeah That seems Like A very useful set of skill sets for these days.

00:24:05: Would You agree with that?

00:24:06: Or do you Also See other skills that Are getting more important?

00:24:09: I do agree with that, i think it resonates a bit.

00:24:12: With um...I don't know if you heard the same Tony for that podcast recently but uh could

00:24:17: be

00:24:18: The one I heard was talking about something similar.. I think what-the point is he's making.

00:24:24: as far as I understood It was You cannot give away everything to the AI and thing That will do things for you like If you want build really good software Part of understanding how all these components interact with each other and having an architecture in your head for it, knowing where to go to fix something.

00:24:41: You cannot just give this over the AI also in a product sense I mean he's also a product guy so takes that further into the products And says like even you're sales channel or distribution marketing How user uses it etc.

00:24:56: All is one big system.

00:24:58: It has an architecture and need stay on top.

00:25:01: don't think they will solve it.

00:25:04: So maybe that aligns a bit with what you were saying.

00:25:08: I think also in this podcast, we've probably both seen he talks about the importance of marketing and how it should start from the beginning like press release or thinking on how to market things before they actually started building them up.

00:25:31: That was exactly that.

00:25:34: Yeah, totally true and I found it really cool how he put it.

00:25:38: so i read this book three years ago And actually the press release thing... ...I tried to implement a twinkler in couple of product launches.

00:25:45: So we got into room and said like.. We're writing The Press Release now.

00:25:48: It looked even like newspaper article Where you would write The Press Release before starting build?

00:25:53: We tryed it's like a couple times!

00:25:59: idea to not do it this way.

00:26:01: I think the metaphor he made was when you make a movie, You don't get on The set and start acting and see where it goes?

00:26:08: You write a script And you think of a story and you think Of costumes and everything.

00:26:15: Once all that is there then you start To record an act.

00:26:19: So we were saying like how crazy Is in software world?

00:26:22: We can just go ahead Start coding stuff See Where It Goes.

00:26:25: That's Just Crazy.

00:26:28: Yeah, I also really love that reference.

00:26:30: Even said people say if you start with marketing That's backwards but it's not true.

00:26:35: It is the right thing or like the right order of things and its funny how us techpeople because we Start often what technology?

00:26:43: We think it's backwards to start With marketing

00:26:45: exactly.

00:26:46: so first the why i mean thats The most logical thing right.

00:26:49: do something First.

00:26:50: Why are You want one thing To Do That?

00:26:53: Where Are You Wanting to go?

00:26:54: And Then Your Go

00:26:57: For the Winter Array, which was your recent release of a new drone.

00:27:00: Did you write a press release before launching and building it?

00:27:04: When I read the book we were already a year into the project i think.

00:27:08: And then I thought hey...I still want to do it!

00:27:11: Then I wrote our head-of marketing and product manager.. ..and didn't wanna disturb people too much from their day today because its just an experiment.

00:27:20: But when actually got in a room and locked ourselves up for two hours We said like okay what's this press release gonna look like?

00:27:26: And I do think it helped a lot.

00:27:28: Like, for the remainder of our project... It was something we were going back to in different forms but it's like clear.

00:27:34: what are people gonna thing at that moment when they launch this?

00:27:37: What message you wanna bring?

00:27:39: and also from Tony Fadel who is speaking about how many features he wants on your press release That i really saw during the Wink Array.

00:27:46: There're so many things we did with this drone But peoples attention span is relatively small.

00:27:51: So whats gonna be hit?

00:27:52: if you want go out with them why will they move into purchase?

00:27:55: I

00:27:56: actually saw the actual press release a couple months ago and thought it was very impressive, really cool.

00:28:02: Our marketing team also did an absolutely amazing job on that product.

00:28:07: So you said we're at Wingtrap for more than decade already so started out as engineer but were part of founding team right?

00:28:14: And then moved towards leadership position.

00:28:17: What are some things learned along way?

00:28:20: Endless Things.

00:28:24: It feels like almost everything I learned in my life.

00:28:28: In this decade, probably a bit what... Like how team works and maybe going back to the trust relationships point that i made before?

00:28:40: I think I learnt that over time was more in my nature to think of people.

00:28:46: In early days there's some tension on topic.

00:28:49: we're discussing which way to go.

00:28:51: I did realize that some people might be paying more attention to the technical part of it, and i would pay more attention maybe on the dynamic side.

00:29:01: So if we have this discussion like this then were either not going take a decision or someone will be very angry.

00:29:08: so i had the lens for it but over time started becoming more habituated thing and really methodological.

00:29:16: now just see as You build trust, this is the number one most important thing in a company and on team.

00:29:22: And you need to do it proactively.

00:29:24: don't do when problem comes up.

00:29:26: that's way too late... ...you have like a Trust Foundation but your always grooming.

00:29:31: Once you have The Trust Doe how again as an leader How can you enable Your Team?

00:29:36: I

00:29:38: think maybe next thing is agency & empowerment.

00:29:43: For me if I think like an in steps, so it's good.

00:29:46: We started with trust.

00:29:47: that's done.

00:29:49: Yeah agency and empowerment i do believe In pushing yourself out of the comfort zone?

00:29:56: I mean i myself push my self Out Of The Comfort Zone all the time And It's really Like I Believe in That.

00:30:03: this is what you should be doing in your life.

00:30:04: its just don't stay in Your comfort zone.

00:30:07: and I Think then You kind of with your team, you try to make sure everyone is trying to do a bit of that as much they kind of can.

00:30:14: As much as they feel like but do see where their potential is and help them get out of the comfort zone.

00:30:20: And then giving the agency an empowerment Is also about letting go decisions.

00:30:25: I don't know if i've mastered or not But it's a challenge To have this trade-off between micromanaging and letting go Over time.

00:30:36: You realize you need to do both, it's not one or the other.

00:30:40: You also have to be there in detail when there is a problem with having people back.

00:30:44: that goes into the trust part right?

00:30:46: You're not letting your team go in the wrong direction and don't care if they are here and understand what their doing but can always have them back at same time.

00:30:54: we want everyone back all of the times such as being in comfort zone again.

00:31:01: I'm not carrying so much risk myself.

00:31:04: It's my boss in the end that I think you don't want to have, right?

00:31:06: You want to make people's problems their problem when they're solving them.

00:31:11: Yeah also recently thought a lot about this.

00:31:14: it is fine line between kind of getting involved but not micromanaging everything and then giving people with freedom To also explore and figure stuff out on there own.

00:31:25: And i think its very individual as well like every person needs maybe bit more of that In certain phase of thier life.

00:31:32: I think Tony Fidel also said, even in design you have to micromanage certain things.

00:31:39: You have to be aware of what do want to micro-manage and Steve Jobs did that as well he says but then let go and the team do rest right?

00:31:48: And trust a team they can do.

00:31:50: it for me made sense

00:31:52: absolutely yeah.

00:31:53: i think he emphasizes micro manage.

00:31:55: few thing matter.

00:31:57: so you've been at Winkler more than ten years.

00:32:01: I personally know you don't stay at the place for such a long time, unless you're really motivated and driven by what your building is doing.

00:32:09: What are the reasons that Winktra and this job still motivates after ten years?

00:32:15: That's very good question!

00:32:17: I never thought i would say so long... You were absolutely right.

00:32:19: it's almost twelve years now.

00:32:22: It changed from time to time but definitely let us start with people.

00:32:28: I think that was always one central part.

00:32:30: That's what made me hold on to Inker in the beginning, when i was thinking like first few months... ...I remember kind of weighing off.

00:32:36: is this where I want to stay or not?

00:32:39: And the clearest thing that kept me there were people.

00:32:42: If I'm just hanging around these people they're inspiring their fun Where I see us being friends and myself learning so much from them.

00:32:50: So it was a big driver over those years that kept repeating, so new people would come into the company with new views and experiences.

00:32:58: And I always keep learning from other people who came in.

00:33:01: That is definitely one side of it!

00:33:03: The other part?

00:33:04: At some point you want to see your baby get to places where they saw for a long time... Like, again building hardware is hard and it takes a long time.

00:33:15: And if you just bail on... I mean not bailing in a guilt-trippy way but If you want to go see your next challenge too early then You didn't see through what you started.

00:33:24: i think that's A bit of my internal motivation as well.

00:33:28: What sort the impact That Your baby Is having In The World Already?

00:33:36: It is crazy how many different types of use cases customers are having for our drone.

00:33:44: this is the most astounding thing from me if you can connect yourself a bit to that.

00:33:49: Customers and what they're actually doing with the drone on its it's physical world in managing the physical world end, this is so diverse and it's so kind fundamental basic everything we do like this table phone and food.

00:34:04: we eat them.

00:34:05: what's behind it is like a food supply chain and agriculture industry, mining industry.

00:34:12: And the construction industry in transportation infrastructure and so on...and so forth.

00:34:17: So I'm always astounded by how many customers we have are using our drone to make their jobs easier safer more efficient In all of these branches of kind of critical preservation of civilization.

00:34:30: It's about how.

00:34:31: i think Of course you have some use cases that feel a bit happier about when it's about climate change, environmental monitoring wildlife preservation.

00:34:41: All of these are also use cases our customers are doing?

00:34:44: I try to not romanticize those too much over the other use cases because yes building and planning city properly is also very fundamental for humans as much as it is saving orangutans that our customers do both of those so...

00:34:59: Do you have use cases that your intentionally staying away from?

00:35:04: The one thing that we've initially said, We don't want to do so much is weaponizing the drones and I think over the years That was sometimes not the hardest thing To stick too.

00:35:16: And at other times it became very hard.

00:35:18: You can imagine right now Even when i tell people Now that build a drone It's changed Three years ago they would be like Ah what kind of drone you mean?

00:35:26: One that take pictures At my wedding with?

00:35:28: If someone tells me They're thinking about weapons Which is sad we are steering away from that one.

00:35:35: And not to kind of judge anybody who's doing it, I mean if-I think for me its just being attached the cause.

00:35:39: so If your causes is to defend you country Defend democracy and You want do in this way?

00:35:46: Do see these weapons as critical then sure go into it.

00:35:50: For us i think We chose To spend our time otherwise we don't Want be The ones building the weapon.

00:35:57: Personally would have a hard Time aligning my personal values with That.

00:36:01: Yeah, I think it's very important that you're building something that aligns with your core values so that you can keep doing.

00:36:08: Yes!

00:36:09: I don't judge anybody who is actually trying to do in a way or if this what they are trying to achieve then i respect That.

00:36:16: What I do judge and criticize a bit Is Don't Just Have A Job To Have A job And Not Care About Where This Is Going Or What Are You Actually Creating?

00:36:26: That I Think Is A Little Bit Critical.

00:36:28: And if you kind of loop it back to the AI and how its changing everything, that's also something that is not staying there for long.

00:36:34: With AI more-and-more... ...you have to care about what your trying to achieve.

00:36:38: You have go a higher level in bigger picture.

00:36:41: So I'm happy with this because i really think everybody should be reflecting on themselves like these hundred thousand hours they spend their life at work.

00:36:52: What are doing?

00:37:00: We'll now dive into the rapid fire questions.

00:37:03: Let's start with a first one, so again you are a builder but if could change line of coding and other product not in WinTra what would do?

00:37:13: My YouTube algorithm I would loosen it up little bit.

00:37:17: there is probably like parameter that you can expose to different things just always same stuff as before.

00:37:25: Yeah, this rapid hole of YouTube once you're in there.

00:37:29: It's pretty intense like my YouTube... Of course I love everything that gets suggested to me but yeah it doesn't give me so much exposure to other stuff!

00:37:38: Yeah i hope the youtube team is listening All right.

00:37:43: The next one on allyship.

00:37:45: what an everyday act of allyshipped do you think everyone can?

00:37:50: First thing comes to mind make coffee for two.

00:37:54: If you're making a coffee make-to, if your in big office someone is going to want the second coffee.

00:37:58: Yeah I love that!

00:38:00: We'll try it out.

00:38:02: Awesome and whose voices do think we should hear more from in tech?

00:38:07: To the conversation before.

00:38:09: i think we need listen our users and customers because often there are somewhere very different discipline And by itself its extremely interesting Not saying listen to them, to drive up retention and lower churn.

00:38:22: And so on not the classical.

00:38:25: know your customer stuff but more be curious who else is doing what out there in the world?

00:38:31: Then if you're building something probably start with your customers then it's gonna take into a new world.

00:38:37: Yeah fully agreed!

00:38:40: The last one is If listeners remember just one single thing from this whole conversation What should It Be?

00:38:45: Stay connected To The Purpose of what you're building and they are going to be fine.

00:38:53: Very nice, thank-you so much Yousef for being here.

00:38:55: this was lovely.

00:38:56: Thank-you Lisa.

00:39:03: As always really interesting talking with Yousefs on syncing some topics that were both involved in.

00:39:11: What stuck with me from the conversation is that hardware's really hard.

00:39:16: I don't know myself because i'm a lazy software engineer, but there's actually a lot of potential now with AI.

00:39:22: that hardware is getting more appreciation again in the industry.

00:39:26: and also love that Vintra is creating intentional spaces for learning and experimentation with AI But at the same time he was taking off as he said doing an AI detox, so being intentional both when you're using AI and also when you want to shot it off for a while.

00:39:46: And another example that we are synced up a little bit is that we both listened to this podcast that shared about the importance of marketing When You're Building products The importance of thinking About what your releasing in how you communicate with customers before you actually start coding or building anything.

00:40:06: So thank you all so much for tuning in today again.

00:40:09: As always, we love to hear from you.

00:40:11: send us your comments and if you want To have a deeper conversation of what you heard today You can also send us an email at podcast ad hello fifty fifty dot world.

00:40:22: If you have someone In Your environment that should be listening to this podcast.

00:40:26: We Always Love When You Forward That And with This Question I'll leave you Today.

00:40:31: Is What You're Building & Doing Everyday Aligned with your values and gives you purpose or not.

00:40:38: Until next time!