Social Media Architecture: Breaking the Addiction Loop

00:00:00: There are small, scrappy non-profit startup consisting of like twenty volunteers.

00:00:04: It's clear that we don't have the resources that big players do have but at the same time this constraint is also our biggest strength because it means we can innovate and want to innovate by showing what could be possible if optimized for healthier tech.

00:00:30: and where we talk to people

00:00:31: who make tech more humane.

00:01:01: Wardon is the co-founder and executive director of Sparkable, which is a nonprofit that builds a healthier social media platform.

00:01:09: In our conversation we talked about interaction patterns and why they make us addicted—for example to do a lingua bird!

00:01:17: And also talk about how social media has an impact on society as well.

00:01:35: So, welcome Bardon to the Hello!

00:01:38: fifty-fifty world podcast.

00:01:39: Thank you.

00:01:40: We'll start with a first question How does your own life and path relate To making tech more humane?

00:01:46: Is there a word or like an anecdote that comes to mind when You hear humane Tech?

00:01:52: Yeah I think There's two parts do That.

00:01:54: so i grew up sort of between cultures so I've always been in Between worlds And became bridge builder at an early age.

00:02:07: But I, over time realized how tech is shaping relations between communities as well and that was partly my family background but also my work with refugees or made me think a lot about how certain communities are portrayed in media, talked about also especially on social media and what it is like to meet members of that community.

00:02:36: In real life you know have real-life interactions.

00:02:39: I worked in the communications team for one of the Swiss federal consulers for long time And in that job also consumed a lot of media every day.

00:02:51: I think was exposed to much more media content than the normal person over this span of half a decade.

00:02:58: And it was really sort of at the same time, these experiences working with refugees but also working in this communications team doing that job and being exposed to so much media.

00:03:12: same time was what really made me think a lot about how media works and the incentives, business incentives behind it work.

00:03:21: And especially you know how technology also amplifies certain things.

00:03:26: so I'm sure we're going to talk like platform design or platform incentives but this is sort of my personal background that came from these topics.

00:03:37: Yeah i am very excited today on our conversation media and especially social media afterwards.

00:03:42: But before we dive in, you brought a plus one.

00:03:45: who is it?

00:03:46: And why is she here?

00:03:48: Yeah so her name's Sofia Kaminska.

00:03:52: I brought Sophia today because i'm coming sort of more from platform incentives like structural design perspective more sort of the behavioral background.

00:04:07: Sofia has an amazing work also during her masters in Lucerne where she basically built a project that is called option control and did a lot like research, I'm sure it's going to share later bitmore on that work but i felt like its perfectly complementary from what perspective Im bringing.

00:04:29: so im super happy you joined today Sofia.

00:04:32: Thanks for having me.

00:04:33: Welcome, Sophia.

00:04:35: We're also super happy to have you here and we are going to dive into this topic of social media now a bit with both of you.

00:04:43: so as you both know Social Media platforms they're engineered and designed for attention And often we see these interaction patterns in social media that Are drawing people in really try To keep them on the platforms As long as possible.

00:04:57: There's like prominent examples That most People are aware Of Like The Infinite Scroll.

00:05:02: Funny anecdote, the person that invented infinite scroll is Eraskin.

00:05:07: He actually famously said he really regrets inventing this because he realizes the impact it has.

00:05:13: but there's also other kind of funny examples like a dual lingual bird that is making you guilty about not using the app.

00:05:21: So these types of interaction patterns, which are the worst that you have seen in your own work or also using social media yourself?

00:05:29: Can you share some examples with us.

00:05:35: It's not necessarily just one sort of feature for me, it is really the algorithm like specifically engagement based algorithms.

00:05:43: I think they are such a central part why we see the harms were seeing with polarizing sensational content being ranked more highly and everything was much more geared towards outrage or any other emotion.

00:05:59: And definitely stems from business model where platforms do have an incentive to keep us on their platforms for longer so they can show as more ads and make more money.

00:06:09: And the way to keep this one, the platform's longer is by showing us content that is often very borderline or like sensational polarizing or outrageous et cetera.

00:06:19: So I really think the algorithm question is-is the key?

00:06:23: Then of course you know there are things that tie into that Like For example these variable rewards.

00:06:29: You never what comes next in the field when you scroll.

00:06:34: The platforms also work with that, right?

00:06:36: They don't show you only sort of the content they know for sure.

00:06:39: You're going to like but they also every now and then put content in there just brings into a variable reward aspect And it's the same principle That you have behind slot machines.

00:06:51: It is these kinds of psychological tricks that are built into this platform.

00:06:56: I think its not one feature which makes the platform unhealthy.

00:07:03: A collection of things that when you put it together, It really becomes a toxic cocktail.

00:07:09: For me the most dark patterns are not that manipulative.

00:07:13: They feel really normal in twenty-twenty five to twenty six and There are lots of them like scene feature.

00:07:24: We're just accustomed To see what our messages are read And they were so engraved into this human communication.

00:07:30: That keeps us addicted.

00:07:31: The user is choosing the sticker and you're like, okay which sticker they got?

00:07:35: You are really waiting as at this slot machine.

00:07:37: Like what's going to come next when you refresh that feed.

00:07:40: then it could be refreshed in a millisecond but makes you wait with this animation feature?

00:07:46: just keep anticipating the next big thing.

00:07:49: And yeah was Guild Tripping with Zoolinko?

00:07:53: Yes!

00:07:54: They used their patterns In the end, we also sometimes need to ask what's the end goal of them.

00:08:00: So with Duolingo it is in-the-end learning language.

00:08:02: There are different platforms that you can use.

00:08:05: Yes sure they have best marketing The most popular and type.

00:08:08: That way You could appreciate their services.

00:08:11: And I know that At one point when life was normal When you just receive this notification... ...you're actually happy.

00:08:18: Okay!

00:08:18: I'm gonna do my duolingo streak Strict as the other pattern that they could use.

00:08:23: the fear of losing this streak, it also guilt trips you.

00:08:26: But then on the other side I used Duolingo as a good example for some of my design fellows because You can use their approach to streaks in real life like most of us have.

00:08:37: This is like i'm gonna develop habit but one day your often say okay im going forget about all these things and then they have this freezes.

00:08:47: give me five everything.

00:08:50: These old topics are just engraved in our lives, like gamification of everything.

00:08:55: So there's lots of dark patterns that are engraved but then I think the ones who might be darkest and influence on us really feel normal.

00:09:06: I personally hate Duolingo!

00:09:09: And it's exactly because of the interaction patterns and I have a bit of knowledge on behavioral psychology, how this is built into tools.

00:09:19: I even looked at a study.

00:09:22: I cannot use it anymore, i can not unsee it and this is also the thing that you mentioned Sophia.

00:09:28: these things have become normal or we are not aware any more.

00:09:32: We're just accustomed to them.

00:09:34: These aren't difficult ones right?

00:09:36: And...I want touch on some good examples!

00:09:39: Or all of those platforms.

00:09:40: so Not everything's bad.

00:09:42: Also in social media space there positive examples.

00:09:45: I'm going to mention one that i've recently learned about, for example on Pinterest.

00:09:49: They know they have a lot of users that are at school kids teenagers and don't want to draw them into using the app while there being it's cool.

00:09:58: so they have features in functionality too.

00:10:00: basically detect when their opening up well being its cool and stay.

00:10:06: show them kind of push-up notification.

00:10:08: sure you wanna use Pinterest right now just snap them out if this habits.

00:10:14: So this is a positive example.

00:10:16: Do you have other positive examples when it comes to interacting with social media?

00:10:22: It's honestly difficult for me, I didn't see that pop-up notification yet but i know tiktok also did work on something like that.

00:10:35: If they detected you're sort of scrolling at night, um... They would show a pop-up which is definitely probably step in the right direction.

00:10:43: but to me it often times feels like It's just so inadequate.

00:10:49: You build product that is fundamentally Doing one thing and then you have a little drop of Of the other thing.

00:11:00: it is just.

00:11:00: it doesn't make a huge difference.

00:11:02: I think.

00:11:02: if you were really serious about people feeling better after they've used your product like You would think about why?

00:11:10: You need those interventions in the first place.

00:11:12: Why do we need sort of an intervention that tells People hey, are you sure you want to use our products Like?

00:11:18: ideally you have some.

00:11:19: you have built something that you know It's not just like effortless and easy to use, but actually really helps people.

00:11:27: And it helps not only individuals, but also society work better.

00:11:32: that oftentimes is hard too.

00:11:34: combine that with a profit motive.

00:11:36: Martin you touched on the algorithm before.

00:11:38: do think if the algorithms would be different?

00:11:41: It would make a difference

00:11:43: one hundred percent.

00:11:46: That's why we focus so much on that with sparkable.

00:11:49: I really think that the algorithm is one of the central pillars.

00:11:53: It's not the only thing, but we at Sparkable were looking at something called bridging algorithms and it works differently from engagement algorithms or engagement based ranking such as todays platforms.

00:12:11: The big ones and Bridging Algorithms in my opinion are things to give me most hope because I really believe and there's also now more studies on that, they can make a huge difference.

00:12:25: People used to sort of compare engagement-based ranking in studies with chronological feeds or reverse chronological feed where you just see the newest posts at top but I think it is inadequate.

00:12:39: so bridging based rankings are something that could help make social media much healthier.

00:12:49: So can you share a bit more about Sparkable and how it works compared to other social media platforms in detail?

00:12:55: Yeah, so Sparkable is currently group of volunteers trying to build healthier social media.

00:13:00: And we have sort of four central pillars In our theory of change for things that we believe need to be different To make Social Media healthier.

00:13:11: Probably most important one is that we believe healthier social media needs to be not for profit.

00:13:16: And so as an organization at Sparkable, We are a non-profit.

00:13:20: That's also why we're group of volunteers... ...we would like in the future you know be funded by donations.

00:13:27: We already have some people donating but were still very much at their earliest stage.

00:13:32: But bringing that funding model of Wikipedia or Signal To Social Media and really ensuring our mission Also financially our mission sort of is building healthier social media and are financial incentives should align with that.

00:13:47: So being a nonprofit, it's one of the four key things for us.

00:13:52: The next one would be bridging algorithms or bridging based ranking where we really believe that this could make a huge difference.

00:13:58: instead of ranking content.

00:13:59: Based on popularity, We plan to rank content highly only when it manages.

00:14:04: two sort of bridge divides are managers to be seen as high quality by people who normally don't have the same opinion and That is an essential principle that we're trying to implement.

00:14:16: And then the third one will be pro.

00:14:18: social design is a complicated word for just like design that basically brings out people's best sides.

00:14:25: So instead of having, you know... For example the angry reaction option as you know it maybe from Facebook replacing those reactions with more pro-social options.

00:14:36: so in Sparkable You can't like content!

00:14:38: You can only spark it and when you click on the spark button It asks you what the contents sparked in you?

00:14:44: And then you have to choice between saying it sparked inside compassion inspiration joy hope and respect, which shows those intentionally because it is through design I think the platform communicates what its values are looking for.

00:14:59: So being a non-profit using bridging based ranking pro social design.

00:15:04: then last one would be transparency in user control so really ensuring that when you use your platform always know why.

00:15:12: they're seeing slot machine thing, but you are in control and it's not the feed that is controlling you.

00:15:19: And to be specific... That means that at any time like basically look under the hood and see what filters are set?

00:15:26: What keywords are being searched for which key words are excluded?

00:15:30: You could also change those settings.

00:15:36: really think that this one is crucial for building shared reality, which I believe it's super important for functioning societies common ground etc.

00:15:45: And you know we don't have that today on social media platforms.

00:15:50: if you and i search for the same term We're going to see wildly different results because its hyper-personalized.

00:16:04: that should hopefully help build common

00:16:09: ground.

00:16:10: Super cool also the awareness piece, right?

00:16:12: That we talked about before this transparency that user knows what is actually shown to them.

00:16:18: definitely Sophia you want to

00:16:20: jump in and ask do have a problem that users say too long on the platform?

00:16:23: Do they have to tell him like hey that's time stop

00:16:26: Not yet.

00:16:28: But

00:16:29: I think it really speaks to design because your not designing product has to have on a package, hey like you're gonna have attention span cancer quote unquote because You are not creating the product.

00:16:43: That's an intentionally addictive.

00:16:46: and On the things I as u mentioned was funding.

00:16:50: i think building something humane in The world that we were living In?

00:16:54: That really incentivized this attention-based economy is Really hard Because We're Not sold the products there that much.

00:17:04: When you think about the apps, actually just go and do things then log out.

00:17:10: these

00:17:10: are not the ones using your attention.

00:17:14: like if you think of economics what in the end is a goal with I don't know SBB app?

00:17:21: Actually which product has nice nudges when they use SBB for writing from one point to another but forget to turn off the easy write.

00:17:31: it's like did we arrive at destination?

00:17:33: Yes, okay.

00:17:34: I can switch it off but then in the end a product of SBB is selling me tickets and providing the transportation when you go to Instagram or Facebook or any kind of social media.

00:17:46: they're selling our data And for them we are at the product not even the ads that were seen.

00:17:51: yet They have some profit from that.

00:17:53: But in the ends The more we spend time on their app the more we engage In debt do more data?

00:18:01: and that's how they get their money.

00:18:03: That is the main line we can draw between services who can intentionally bring us joy or functionality, while others are using our biologically engraved mechanism for thriving attention and connection then abusing them to profit from other

00:18:23: people.

00:18:23: Yeah, very good point.

00:18:24: I was also wondering because Sparkable is not just an idea it's actually live right.

00:18:28: people are already using in and i'm also using it myself who do you see using Sparkable?

00:18:34: And what are their incentives like?

00:18:35: why do they use Sparkable?

00:18:38: yeah mean that is sort of a big thing we still work on hard Like nobody nowadays wants to use yet another app or switch.

00:18:47: I think the switching cost is really high and especially with social networks, if your entire network is not already on that platform you don't have a lot of incentive to switch.

00:18:56: so what we see for now as The people who are using sparkable Are really the ones who believe in division?

00:19:03: And the ones Who also know about the harms that today's social media creating.

00:19:08: So they have sort of their own intrinsic motivation to switch and it's not like some external motivation that makes people use Sparkable.

00:19:17: And I think ultimately we really want Sparkable to be also the place where people gather, like people who come from all different kinds of walks of lives in parts of the world but are sort-of united trying to build something better because you can build a best product if the community is on board or does their own thing very differently.

00:19:39: That's ultimately you know, gonna have a huge effect as well.

00:19:42: So I think we've been very lucky to have so many people really across the globe use Sparkable but also contribute in other ways beyond just posting on the platform and of people who end up volunteering our team, volunteering their time like.

00:20:01: for me that's most magical thing right?

00:20:04: those folks who are in the team is oftentimes like very, similar to people using platforms or community at large.

00:20:11: It's people care about effects that tech has on society and the planet trying make a positive difference.

00:20:21: So you're basically building your community of change makers?

00:20:24: That's sparkable!

00:20:26: Sophia, Are You Unsparkable?

00:20:28: Yes I actually registered right after our talk we had couple days ago And we also talked about the vision and the mission, why would people be there?

00:20:38: An interplay between stakeholders in social media interaction field.

00:20:46: For me when I learned about Sparkable maybe just talking from a research perspective that was really great way to not compete with Instagram.

00:20:55: Not for their attention.

00:20:56: Maybe yet users can switch space where they can have a different feeling of using and sharing, and having back the feeling of community.

00:21:07: For me it's really good example.

00:21:09: how you design a different architecture?

00:21:11: There are lots of research being done And then how do you transfer that research to the actual product people could use To solve this problem?

00:21:20: And for me sparkable is great examples like policy makers.

00:21:29: how can it be built different?

00:21:31: How could you also see the research of people use a different kind of architecture.

00:21:37: This is for me why Sparkable was such big thing, not when compared to the user base but as an example that things are done differently than what other users would feel.

00:21:50: and then yeah goes all way through the research with policies.

00:21:55: so everything you just learn by using

00:22:01: Maybe touching on that.

00:22:02: Vardun, what's the goal with Sparkable?

00:22:04: or when do you think You've reached success?

00:22:08: Like is it a number of people on the platform?

00:22:10: Or What's your actual go?

00:22:12: Yeah No I also say that to the team all The time.

00:22:15: It's not like we're not optimizing for growth.

00:22:18: We really want To have an impact On the discussions and i think That's why what Sofia just said Is so important.

00:22:25: We are a small, scrappy non-profit startup consisting of like twenty volunteers.

00:22:29: It's clear that we don't have the resources that big players do have but at the same time this constraint is also our biggest strength because it means we can innovate and we want to innovate by showing what could be possible if we optimize for healthier tech.

00:22:46: If you really had this mission in front or center And that meant being concrete If we build things like pro-social reactions, We want to shape the discussions that are happening at the moment because I think this topic of healthier tech or also social media and the effects it's having on societies.

00:23:08: It is something people almost everywhere have been a topic that people think about And Sofia has mentioned.

00:23:17: there're regulators, researchers So many different stakeholders who have a much, much higher interest in that now.

00:23:26: But oftentimes what is lacking as also Sofia has said are concrete examples of how things could be done differently and that's where we want to contribute too.

00:23:35: as team We wanna contribute new ideas innovative new approaches because were so small.

00:23:41: we can quickly test and iterate on And with that sort ideally influence larger discussions.

00:23:49: You know, one part of the theory of change is that by contributing to discussion are ideas and innovations.

00:23:55: If that ends up being something people really appreciate then it might also be lever of pressure you could use on bigger platforms too.

00:24:05: make them changed some their designs as well.

00:24:08: And with future generations being on the horizon much more aware this unhealthy side social media or technology in general How do you feel that these digital natives, for example the Generation Z are using technology?

00:24:25: Are they using it more mindfully or actually much more prone to being pulled in and getting addicted with technology.

00:24:33: I'll let you go first Sophia!

00:24:34: I

00:24:35: have a lot say on this.

00:24:37: The actual talk we made two days ago was called how-to design of the most aware generation.

00:24:43: This is how i referred the people I interviewed and did research the most while doing option control project.

00:24:51: I worked mostly with zillenials, which are the micro generation between millenials and zillennials.

00:24:57: It not really depends on their age but they were brought up by technology And i'm representative of that... ...I was born a year after Google.

00:25:07: Then during my life I could see how Technology changed in shape How it shaped mine interactions And then how our relationship shifted.

00:25:16: So it was really drawn from the personal experience.

00:25:19: And then as a daughter of a sailor, for me internet brought ability to talk my dad who was away half-of-the year first through emails, then through Skype and through messengers.

00:25:33: Now he has an Internet on his ship.

00:25:36: I can message him anytime.

00:25:39: Then we will be connected.

00:25:40: He just calls whenever like at work or school.

00:25:43: And then for that, for connection—that the thing actually brings us all to social media in particular.

00:25:49: To have this connection.

00:25:50: it's a positive thing.

00:25:51: I also saw during research.

00:25:53: but when we were working on the social medias... ...I could see how can you be drawn into algorithms and overusing?

00:26:01: Then i became power user myself When people would ask me hey!

00:26:05: You didn't post anything for twenty-four hours on.

00:26:07: stories are doing fine not as joke but seriously.

00:26:11: that brought me all the way to my research I did on option control and the people i worked with.

00:26:18: Because in the end Gen Z, and Zillennials in particular are most aware of what technology is doing for them.

00:26:28: if you tell them dopamine loop they would not ask you What Is This?

00:26:35: They know their screen time!

00:26:36: They're proud about it!

00:26:40: The thing The problem is not awareness.

00:26:44: That's the agency, how can you deal with that?

00:26:48: I think these generations we are mentioning especially...I don't know the letters anymore alpha also coming up.

00:26:56: They know the problems but then they question us How do you deal it?

00:27:01: and thats what i think both work on.

00:27:06: I work more in behavioural side, gardeners are an architectural part of this.

00:27:11: We tried in all of the discussions to divide people, either especially on a Gen Z example.

00:27:17: Either they are perfectly adopted or completely lost.

00:27:23: In the end I would say that new generations are aware.

00:27:27: They just lack some good agency or behavioral changing patterns Or different architectural on apps And they're also the change makers.

00:27:41: I chose especially this generation because They will raise a new generation that's gonna come in and Educate them, and Also there are the ones That have the influence on their parents and grandparents Because at the end?

00:27:56: There not most vulnerable once!

00:27:58: They know it The Most Vulnerable Once Are The Ones That Are Coming To The World That Are Using Attack From The Early Age and not having any guardrails, but also the seniors who don't have the capability or ability to educate themselves in a way that we were educated.

00:28:17: So I think choosing people who are most aware is key for educating other vulnerable generations.

00:28:27: And in the end, it's a complicated and complex question.

00:28:31: But it's the most interesting to work with these people because they would be the most sarcastic.

00:28:35: They tried at all The blocker apps, the locker devices... ...and then like just leave me alone let me have my phone or yeah I know what you do for long time but It is that way.

00:28:49: and tapping into this space where goes deeper on personal social level When they're fine with their usage, but are just not okay how does it make them feel?

00:29:03: And there's the place where you can work and talk to people.

00:29:07: Then create some projects out of this because in the end... ...people want to communicate like spaces for having a natural way that we've done before.

00:29:18: The nostalgia on Facebook or Instagram was all about your friends But then in the end, it's all about being in the same room and being able to talk with each other.

00:29:28: It is definitely a generation that feels this social responsibility around using technology.

00:29:33: I mean i'm also a millennial so...I definitely feel that!

00:29:36: And when asked of provocative question here especially to Wardone because you're building a tech product To solve a tech problem How do deal with that?

00:29:48: It's something that comes up.

00:29:52: We often times think of things as either or, and I think that's a trap.

00:29:57: Because for me the reality is we live in world where it does have digital aspects so we do have internet, phones... And yet also obviously there are physical worlds!

00:30:10: Those two things exist.

00:30:11: but i don't think believe that the digital part goes away and we only need to be offline from now on, not have phones.

00:30:21: I don't think it's realistic but at the same time doesn't mean we should use tech right?

00:30:27: So i believe there is a symbiotic relationship between tech or real life whatever you want.

00:30:37: The question for me if we do technology then How do we design it?

00:30:45: And is working to the benefit of individuals and societies or benefiting basically a handful billionaires, to be frank.

00:30:56: I think that's sort of question.

00:30:58: how are designing our tech?

00:31:00: not like should use any technology at all... great value in going offline, and not using your phone for certain periods of time.

00:31:11: But it's also a reality.

00:31:12: that is a privilege many people can't do because maybe their businesses rely on technology like we're so incorporated into everything we do everyday lives.

00:31:25: but I think responsibility on the individual and tell them you need to abandon all tech.

00:31:35: If you want do that, sure it's great go ahead.

00:31:38: but we shouldn't put people in that spot because the tech they have is so bad.

00:31:43: I think if thats a problem then make sure the tech we had was better and healthier.

00:31:48: And i think its sort of way approach this question.

00:31:52: I wouldn't say that the tech is too good.

00:31:57: It creates the bad interactions.

00:31:59: Yeah, it's definitely a question of how you define good and bad.

00:32:02: But I meant like that in the sense of... You know?

00:32:05: The harms its creating so harmful would have been a better

00:32:07: word.

00:32:07: yeah And they impact on individual.

00:32:11: Speaking of the individual i'm also curious.

00:32:14: you are both hyper aware Of all things social media does to you.

00:32:18: How're using yourself or your usage changed based On what u've learned over the years.

00:32:25: For me, with Sparkable it's something that we're really trying to... There is this word I don't like dog-fooding but using the product you are building yourself.

00:32:37: So thats definitely a big part.

00:32:39: But apart from that The only social media platform i use regularly Is LinkedIn because That´s one where I still feel Like can connect With people Not through feed not through posts Just by connecting with them.

00:32:54: if there is a need for something, then it's great to be able to message people.

00:33:00: So LinkedIn has opened doors in that sense.

00:33:06: but unfortunately they're also building their own product which is sustained by ads and as such the incentive to make the feed addictive.

00:33:18: really try to not use the feed and look at it all.

00:33:21: So if I used a platform, I just use it mainly direct message other

00:33:27: people.".

00:33:30: Yeah!

00:33:31: I think with Barton we also shared some background on working with social media.

00:33:35: so when i was growing up as an user then became the person who created content Not only for myself but for brands.

00:33:46: interesting to be on the place when you're just creating and, for what are you doing this?

00:33:51: And then this interplay of feelings inside me really made quite perplexed.

00:33:56: In question if I want go in a direction of marketing.

00:33:59: further especially digital marketing also worked directly with Tiktok When it was on its rise after COVID- and then how that works.

00:34:09: Then optimized content.

00:34:12: We just knew the stats.

00:34:14: You can't create a video like it was on YouTube for an hour, you have to create something not even sixty seconds.

00:34:19: seven On the first two.

00:34:21: we had to catch the user and then you created content based in that.

00:34:25: And when I started questioning my relationships with social media When i was taking off plane going on vacation pause from the job.

00:34:44: And then I was still on the flight, posting stories with my ex-partner and told me like hey can you put it down?

00:34:51: No no i have to do this!

00:34:52: Then about that moment when I really reflected in it... ...and also went more into design UX Design thinking how products are created because they're not just existing.

00:35:03: They were created by humans like us.

00:35:06: People like us could influence their decisions either as a creator or policy makers, advisors and just being part of the discussion.

00:35:14: And then while doing presentations on option control The first question I start them is Is this app feeding?

00:35:22: Or eating you?

00:35:24: It really helps to set room for reflection point.

00:35:29: For me it's digital native, zilennial Gen Z Social media are my home, its'a part of identity know that the younger generations are all in TikTok and using that.

00:35:41: And I was like, no, leave me with my Instagram.

00:35:43: this is where i am This Is My Bedroom.

00:35:47: So I keep using it for more self-expression though I think always at a point when trying to create more than consume but really shifts on your mental state When you're not socializing or on yourself.

00:36:02: That's most vulnerable part of all social media users.

00:36:06: You go there to socialize quote unquote, and then you're just drawn in your being fed by stuff.

00:36:12: And it eats you at some

00:36:13: point.".

00:36:14: Yeah definitely I'm off Instagram since a good year now

00:36:19: but It

00:36:19: was the journey because i am also yoga teacher.

00:36:22: on instagram you reach alot of people that are interested so I always felt this like I have to push content out but I'd never really enjoyed it.

00:36:34: And, ever really liked that i felt had to do with.

00:36:37: and then i did this experiment just for told myself three months ill be often ill see if there's an impact on my classes...and there wasn't!

00:36:46: So..that was my sort of proof that don't need to be on their doesn feel right?

00:36:51: in this area as well, reflecting experiment and trying to get off some of these networks for a while.

00:36:59: And see what it does to you how it impacts your life.

00:37:02: but come back to the societal or more like systemic level right which is what You're trying to achieve with Sparkable As Well.

00:37:11: How do you think Sparkable will develop into The future?

00:37:16: What Do you need To achieve Your mission?

00:37:19: Yeah, I mean we're developing slowly at the moment and we wish We could be faster Because there's a great sense of urgency that we all feel.

00:37:28: The biggest thing in terms Of like if you want to get involved In helping us build that platform is To join the team and volunteer in our team.

00:37:37: And then There are also more lighter Touchways which would be joining either one of Our events or offline events as well.

00:37:47: Or just You know, create an account on sparkable and post post unsparkable.

00:37:53: And give us feedback.

00:37:54: so we do have a research team and We call it the community consultation that were doing at the moment where we're asking Community members about their experience in what they would like to change and improve above platform.

00:38:08: So I think that's sort of the main ways that we love people too contribute to Sparkable, and then the vision or goal is definitely to make our impact bigger.

00:38:20: And that means building a platform in way it really can do things we want to do.

00:38:28: So for example bridging based ranking still something were implementing.

00:38:32: there's transparency on user control part.

00:38:35: There are so many parts of pro-social design that we're working on.

00:38:40: It has lots of things in the pipeline.

00:38:50: We're now going to go into the last part of the conversation.

00:38:53: Are you ready for the rapid fire questions?

00:38:56: Sure,

00:38:57: all right.

00:38:57: so rapid-fire means quick short answers.

00:39:01: I know this is tricky but uh i'll start with a first question which is why don't?

00:39:06: if you could rewrite a line of code in any product of your choice what would it be?

00:39:12: It's probably more than a line Of Code But it will be changing What The Algorithm Optimizes on or For and Changing you know, away from engagement to bridging.

00:39:22: So making sure the algorithms on social media optimize for content that bridges divides.

00:39:28: Perfect!

00:39:29: All right... The next one is on allyship?

00:39:32: What does an everyday act of allyshp anyone can do?

00:39:36: For me it would be if your in a room where decisions are made and you realize there's people who should have been in this room but not like speak up And make sure decision was only the people who are also going to, you know be affected by this decision.

00:39:53: I think that is what i would say.

00:39:56: You have ardent reply on a structural level and will go back to individual?

00:39:59: I would say respect peoples attention.

00:40:02: in any role did u have if your sitting at table with person was whom ur having a meal put the phone down or away because this persons literally sitting next to you?

00:40:12: it's luxury of world we're living right now to have offline communications.

00:40:17: And on the other side also while you're communicating with anyone instead of sending five, three second voices write a text dictate attacks.

00:40:26: respect people's time.

00:40:27: We could make a whole podcast about voice messages.

00:40:32: Yes awesome okay.

00:40:33: next one is and pardon You touched it a little bit already whose voices do think tech especially needs to hear more from?

00:40:42: Yeah definitely I think its basically suffering from the harm that tech is creating.

00:40:49: And like central part of our approach at Sparkable, if we want to build healthier tech... ...we need people who have knowledge about the harms they see.

00:41:03: today For example it could be a person working as content moderator for one of the biggest social media platforms and has seen sort of, you know what that work looks like and knows the importance of keeping people safe.

00:41:22: And then having that person be for example one building policies instead.

00:41:29: being coming from a group in Silicon Valley

00:41:34: Very nice!

00:41:35: We're going to end with this question.

00:41:39: If listeners remember just one thing from this whole conversation, what should it be in your opinion?

00:41:45: My answer would be that you are not just addicted or weak.

00:41:50: This was designed to be the sway and serve human nature And In The End You're Not the only one responsible for habits but also build them yourself.

00:42:02: So in the end understanding is not only your fault patterns that you're not satisfied with or ways that your communicating, or using the tech.

00:42:12: But in the end understand that you can create your own intentional ways of creating this habits as itself and You could be The Changemaker by either changing Your Habits And giving an example for people around you Educating other generations Or People Around You Going to Volunteer Or To Spread The Word And in the end, understanding that we're living a democratic society where... ...the voice of people should be one who creates policies.

00:42:44: Building on what you said, Sofia I think for me the key takeaway or most important message is there's so much going wrong right?

00:42:55: We are all tired reading news and knowing about things bad But there's, at the same time also so many good things happening or so many people groups organizations you know working on positive change.

00:43:10: Working to build healthier technology.

00:43:13: it sometimes a bit harder to find that because obviously media and social media is not optimizing too.

00:43:20: show those but if you make a little bit of their effort then I think listening today post podcast would be would be your first step.

00:43:28: then you find amazing people and teams, groups.

00:43:33: Do reach out to join them.

00:43:35: do just whatever you can be a part of that positive change because we often times are left feeling very doomed.

00:43:47: but it shouldn't this way.

00:43:48: We all have agency when come together like were more powerful than think.

00:43:53: so let's do that.

00:43:55: join forces in a sense to really build the world.

00:43:58: that is better than what we have today.

00:44:01: It's not only doom and gloom, there are also things that spark joy like sparkable!

00:44:07: Perfect yeah... And thats exactly why I do this podcast and why i love talking with people like you showing the positive sides of how we can build healthier tech.

00:44:18: With that will end our wonderful conversation.

00:44:20: Thank You so much Vardan & Sofia for being here.

00:44:23: Thank you so much for having us.

00:44:25: Yeah, thank you Lisa.

00:44:34: Another very insightful discussion and I'm happy to share what stuck with me.

00:44:41: The first thing that i found very interesting is that was sparkable.

00:44:45: they're building a community of change makers And especially the younger generations both the Gen Z but also millennials.

00:44:55: they are really feeling that social responsibility to build tech in a more healthy way for other generations as well.

00:45:02: Being aware of the interaction patterns is the second thing stuck with me.

00:45:07: and by observing our own habits, becoming aware what it does to us so we interact with social media but also other tech tools can make an impact on your life.

00:45:20: But we don't only have to change things on the individual level, it's also important to address the structural level that tech is built in a healthier way and not incentivized to keep us all on these platforms for too long.

00:45:35: In the show notes, you can learn more about Vardon and Sofia's work at Sparkable with the Option Control project.

00:45:43: And if you have a friend or someone that should listen to this conversation we'd appreciate it for them in this episode!

00:45:53: The last thing something think-about is how are YOU making use of social media?

00:46:01: Are you making it intentional or are just doom-scrolling all day long?

00:46:06: We'd love to hear your thoughts.