Digital Twins & Storytelling

00:00:00: Right now, we're kind of in the process that they think a digital twin would be their tool to be there for everybody.

00:00:06: And I don't know if this is going to be like that?

00:00:10: If it's possible to actually present them.

00:00:13: and these are the processes... Our president just called us on another day as not just a digital Twin but more about Digital Twinning.

00:00:20: It's a process how to present geodata.

00:00:25: The public and the public can be like anybody or it could be politicians, could be mayors of a city.

00:00:32: Could be the planners, architects... ...the people.

00:00:36: you know there's a whole bunch of audiences And when the process is figuring out who is the digital twin for?

00:00:43: Is the Digital Twin then more public place?

00:00:49: Welcome to Hello!

00:00:51: The Podcast where we break tech bubbles before they break us And where we talk to people who make tech more humane.

00:01:05: Today's conversation on the Hello!

00:01:06: fifty-fifty world podcast is with Dana Ritzman.

00:01:09: Dana works at The Landesamt für Geobasisinformation Sachsen, Where she helps communicate complex geospatial topics To a broad audience and the public.

00:01:20: What makes Dana perspective for today particularly interesting Is that She did not come into field through engineering computer science or geology.

00:01:29: Her background is actually in journalism and communication.

00:01:33: Over the years, she has become what she calls a translator between technical experts and the public helping people understand how topics like digital twins and three-D geospatial data matter for everyone.

00:01:45: In this conversation we explore How storytelling can make technical topics more accessible, how public institutions can build trust when communicating data and technology.

00:01:56: And why attracting more women into tech and geospatial careers requires rethinking not only the jobs themselves but also how we talk about them?

00:02:04: Let's dive in!

00:02:12: Welcome Dana to Hello!

00:02:16: So you describe yourself as a translator between technical experts.

00:02:21: What surprised you most when first entered the world of geospatial technology?

00:02:26: To be honest, I fell into that space and became a spokesperson for... the state authority of Saxony, the GOSN which is The Appriviation for London's Amd of GeoBasis information.

00:02:41: When I had an interview with the job and actually said well i can't remember their name but like to start working here.

00:02:47: everybody knows maps Google Maps.

00:02:49: they know the navigation.

00:02:50: They take their mobile phone and find a way from A-to B. We're at the State Authority where we have are official coordinates of Saxon Like kind of google maps there And were not the competitor.

00:03:03: If you want to know where's the next cafe, when is it open?

00:03:08: Where does the bus go or something like that.

00:03:10: You might use Google Maps there and nothing against it.

00:03:13: but if you wanna buy a house... ...you need to know the official coordinates.

00:03:18: so this our job too To make sure they are all open data.

00:03:24: It gets on their website.

00:03:28: only to say that it's there doesn't mean people know about.

00:03:31: So this is basically kind of my job, tell people if you want something or whatever just find out on our website.

00:03:39: It's very interesting that you mentioned the example of Google Maps because I also work in this field, right?

00:03:44: So I worked at a company and the geospatial industry.

00:03:47: And when people ask me what is your job about... ...I often tell them we're basically creating Google Maps but for the industry.

00:03:54: You came into the field knowing nothing about Geodesy or geospacial data.

00:03:59: What was kind of technical concepts that you've encountered Or something that you learned as communicator surprising or that really resonated with you.

00:04:10: So what I actually did learn over the years?

00:04:12: to ask questions and sometimes, put them in a little dump... You know?

00:04:16: Sometimes we have to balance that and tell him why.

00:04:18: i'm not that stupid!

00:04:20: Do no little thing about something.

00:04:21: when I get to the point where they understand but some expert is talking about this as the point-I can explain it with my own words There are two hundred seventy people who work for the US, and there's a lot of different topics.

00:04:34: I mean surveying is due information it's mapping It's all different types of fields they're working in.

00:04:41: They're all like engineers technicians experts right?

00:04:44: So they really know what their doing And i'm kind of trying to figure out why its so important that do tell me What they want to do.

00:04:51: then The translation part Is That I Try To Make A Story Out Of It kind of journalist that do the story telling as a password, but this is what we did.

00:05:00: We tried to find his story and then tell the story.

00:05:03: two people say The Geoportal Saxon Atlas.

00:05:05: you know has anybody heard about it?

00:05:07: It's our portal basically Google Maps for Saxony right And it has all types of maps that have like the bad thing places in the summer.

00:05:17: It has this spring walking routes and then people would tell me what's on the geo portal?

00:05:22: Why don't you look at up?

00:05:23: so I try to look it out, but not still don't find because its a technical tool.

00:05:28: now is not just about map said there.

00:05:31: I might not even find them.

00:05:33: And it took me about two years to find the button, and have to press first that i found the categories.

00:05:38: at least It's kind of there you can access but takes a while.

00:05:42: So what we now do is like little webinars once in month.

00:05:46: Its an hour.

00:05:47: its alot.

00:05:48: people who are official authorities work because they use their geo-bottle But could be normal people.

00:05:57: just try figure out how this works And then we tell them what you can also do.

00:06:02: You know, just look up the map that you can like measure something or even add things and stuff.

00:06:08: so it's accessible but kind of have to...you'd need a little training.

00:06:13: I

00:06:15: quickly want to come back this asking questions.

00:06:19: Do you feel like the engineers are always prepared and good at answering these questions or did they also struggle sometimes?

00:06:26: One of my first stories on the end-dom in graphics is how high a house, tree or whatever has different colours.

00:06:37: so it's visualisation Like if a house is higher, it stands on the hill or something like that.

00:06:45: So there's this technical term called end-dom digital elevation model.

00:06:50: and then It took me about to figure out...it was not complicated at all.

00:06:53: And actually the colleague who explained it to me she was pretty good in explaining.

00:06:58: so we did an oppressor release of that.

00:07:01: A colleague called from the local newspaper.

00:07:04: So he's like, well this is interesting.

00:07:06: You know let's do something.

00:07:07: so we didn't interview the female and of course it would not just me was me as a translating person?

00:07:12: And then there was that colleague who you know what she was talking about!

00:07:18: We talked for an hour with their journalist... ...and they were really interested in her.

00:07:23: She tried to explain but I asked them questions kind how to get together.

00:07:28: And then he wrote an article, half a page with nice picture.

00:07:32: He did not use the term endom at all and I thought that this is what journalists do right?

00:07:39: Even in the beginning said What is it?

00:07:41: Endom!

00:07:41: I'm not going to use that and never used like... He basically didn't even want know what the word was The digital elevation model He was like, I'm not going to use it.

00:08:12: And then the other hand, we had journalists asking about a digital twin where they have Saxony in three D. Do you have that data?

00:08:18: We have all of our official coordinates needed for whatever to make maps out it and visualise them.

00:08:26: The Digital Twin is basically just a version of the whole thing.

00:08:31: right.

00:08:31: there are most important things on use cases Right!

00:08:33: They always try to figure what people need and why do they want the Digital Twin Ideas basically the one that is probably very on their hand as they renewable energy.

00:08:48: Sector

00:08:49: for the wind and I do you know, your build them into beans in a huge divisible.

00:08:55: people don't like it especially in Saxony sometimes because of against everything.

00:08:59: but this specially there are against winter beans.

00:09:02: They use to have the coal i mean it's kind still there we all.

00:09:05: no its finishing right at the end of course is written down some type of law in two thousand thirty eight.

00:09:12: so wind is an alternative.

00:09:13: i mean we do have solar and we don't have water.

00:09:15: it's not like in switzerland where you know they do have.

00:09:18: what are?

00:09:18: we don' t have that much water.

00:09:19: the windows there.

00:09:20: So somehow he had to put those two beans somewhere, The turbine right in there with a click on the computer is the good thing at mapping.

00:09:36: You put everything in their all types of restrictions, you have birds and houses.

00:09:41: they're and whatever's that?

00:09:43: And then your put to be in there an then you see it can visualize that which is quite impressive.

00:09:48: you can actually make people see that and they move it with a click on the mouse, how does the sun go?

00:09:54: How is this shade moves to the sun.

00:09:56: And then do I affect my house or not?

00:10:00: It might be far away... This is quite impressive!

00:10:03: Like little example there's tunnel bridge project in Saxony where we track between Dresden Park through the Orm Mountains.

00:10:14: It's an international connection between Germany and the Czech Republic.

00:10:18: And then kind of next to it, probably five kilometers away in necks as well—it is not right there but on that hill —and a castle was built by Auguste the Great.

00:10:29: He sat at this castle three years back... ...and he said from his castle if I sit under those windows….

00:10:36: …I don't want anything besides trees or landscape And it's still in order.

00:10:42: I mean, this king has died a hundred of years ago.

00:10:45: So with the bridge they had to make sure that the bridges can't be seen from that castle.

00:10:51: We have the view sheds we showed in their digital twin use case and Make sure that is kind of all green and green means you can see the bridge.

00:11:01: So this is good, so if August came to life again he would be happy.

00:11:05: look out of his window.

00:11:06: don't see that new fancy bridge there.

00:11:08: It sounds a little funny right?

00:11:10: But what's important for people who live here?

00:11:13: sometimes it's important to be aware of history.

00:11:17: you can forget about your past and also something you shouldn't probably.

00:11:21: So this is a use-catholic.

00:11:23: It has pretty pictures and we had the surveying there, then even surveyed with drone especially so it looks pretty as well.

00:11:31: you know that three D mesh itself its twenty centimeters from the ground so all little blurry not pretty but uh... But it's not important right?

00:11:43: And if wanted to make pretty just takes a drone.

00:11:47: so again and then the pictures are bright like a video, or picture of photo.

00:11:52: I love the story of The Castle.

00:11:54: Yeah, as you said it's a bit silly but i think its important that digital twins allow us to look back into the past right?

00:12:01: A quick shout out for the city of Zurich.

00:12:03: They have this Zurich-IV viewer where they actually go way back like they had prehistoric maps.

00:12:10: You can see how the city looked thousands years ago.

00:12:12: It was really fascinating But then also being able to look in future what is coming with wind turbines?

00:12:17: Super interesting use case As well and do want to touch quickly on visualization part that you mentioned, especially when we talk to the public.

00:12:25: The sort of how it looks needs to be convincing.

00:12:28: It needs to look good and pretty.

00:12:31: working this field myself sometimes is pretty accurate.

00:12:34: they don't always go along so well How do you deal with

00:12:38: tension?

00:12:38: You know for PR people are used.

00:12:46: I think it's a video.

00:12:52: Like for the tunnel, that was just talking about and the tunnel we had very fancy thing.

00:12:58: We combined the GIS coordinates with geology of the mountains, or stones there.

00:13:05: And with the BIM model off the bridge... Or the tunnel basically.

00:13:09: So they made a little video just from the screen in their head and moved the slider through the mountain to show what type of stone are behind that.

00:13:17: There's a legend you can see.

00:13:18: this is like whatever kind of stone.

00:13:21: so it has nice colors looks fun And then I just put that on LinkedIn and our channel, for whatever reason.

00:13:29: That's a good chance to post it and tell about

00:13:33: it.".

00:13:34: So actually colleague of mine called me saying, you know Dana if at some point really need people who can do video call me up?

00:13:42: This was like...I thought this is fun!

00:13:44: It was so important too knows.. You know i told her.... It's nice to know.

00:13:51: if I need that, call you up.

00:13:52: But do them.

00:13:54: but this is it as a video because of us screen taped right?

00:13:59: And its just due... Because if want see the stones inside and kind have to move otherwise you can take a lot pictures with videos at this point!

00:14:09: But wasn't about the video

00:14:11: right?!

00:14:12: And was about information.. This really catch for me.

00:14:18: what i needed to explain that, right?

00:14:21: At some point I'm like okay it's a fun video or fun little gimmick something.

00:14:28: but at some point i need to explain why this is so important and why this was really new.

00:14:33: This actually part of the story with the digital twin who tried to make it visible.

00:14:44: now its only data seems And this is the first step.

00:14:48: So I told them, well we need to show that somehow.

00:14:50: so they're trying to figure out which viewer takes it.

00:14:53: and then the question would be do we have to make a pretty with?

00:14:57: you know the drones take extra surveying has alot of data?

00:15:04: This balance needs us think about.

00:15:07: i'm kind part as PR president and he's also wanted to be pretty but on other hand We know it's not necessary, right?

00:15:17: The twenty centimeters we have makes a blurry but its good enough.

00:15:22: We don't survey with more than twenty centimeters to the ground because of data protection so make sure that you can see the signs for car or even person standing there.

00:15:34: There is reason like technically You go down on the ground.

00:15:39: It could be perfect and anything But it isn't necessary.

00:15:44: So this is a discussion we're in, and you know what I'm talking about.

00:15:50: The

00:15:51: thing that i find challenging working on this field as often at that perspective the pedestrian perspective is one where we have the blurriest images let's put it like that whereas if we look from the helicopter perspective which planning has also been done like nicer, it has better visuals.

00:16:11: But people are not really interested in that perspective especially the public right?

00:16:15: I do have one huge kind of criticism whenever i'm on some geoportal or any city Honestly, I've never seen one where the user experience was targeted towards the general public.

00:16:28: As you said they're very technical so usually have like a list of layers and there's lots of buttons right?

00:16:35: You also touch on that if you couldn't find a button!

00:16:37: And i feel we really want people to use it would need more guided experiences.

00:16:45: How do you address this for Saxony?

00:16:48: What this is, in this case it's kind of what my part of the digital twin that I really want people to think about who needs to use.

00:16:57: That and This Is a discussion right?

00:16:59: It says Really A Public Tool That People Need.

00:17:03: Or Is It Something for Experts Like The Geoportal Is For Experts And You Know All The GIS Engineers Programmers The Developers.

00:17:12: They Know How To Use That.

00:17:14: There'S Lot Of Them.

00:17:15: So If Its Only For Them It's probably perfectly fine, right?

00:17:19: They know how to use it.

00:17:20: What do you fit?

00:17:20: and if there is something that was wrong they call us like we have a helpline.

00:17:24: You called the people said this is not working or I didn't find the button in moved.

00:17:29: We really have telephone pipeline.

00:17:30: People still call...you can write an email whatever accessible but then on your other hand want make more open for public.

00:17:39: so Right now were kind of process think digital twin would be their tool to be there for everybody.

00:17:48: And I don't know if this is going to be like that, but it's possible actually present and have a day of the process like our president just called in other days.

00:17:59: not just digital twin but more about Digital Twinning.

00:18:03: It's a process how to present geodata The public and the public can be like anybody or it could be politicians, could be mayors of a city.

00:18:16: Could be the planners, architects... There's whole bunch of audiences when the process is figuring out who is the digital twin for?

00:18:31: And if the digital twins are in more public place The G-Portal is the maps, they are special.

00:18:39: You have to be able to read maps and it's a digital trend then more for everybody kind of dive into move through see what its like so... It was in process.

00:18:53: I'm really excited to part that actually because i am on point when you ask this question who is it?

00:19:02: Who needs that?

00:19:03: Because sometimes it's so much data driven, right.

00:19:06: And technology-driven.

00:19:08: you know we have those engineers and they don't.

00:19:09: what I can do in this?

00:19:11: all these new tools and techniques and You Can Do This That With That!

00:19:15: And this is great...this is exciting the New Digital World and part of It.

00:19:20: but then on The other hand it costs a lot Of Money & You Do Have To Ask What Is This For and Then Define People That Actually Needed.

00:19:29: So this is really a big discussion and I try to be part of that, right?

00:19:33: Just even in my little spot.

00:19:35: And the state authority there...

00:19:37: I think it's super important that you're part of it!

00:19:40: That we have different perspectives on these conversations.

00:19:43: One thing they just realized was that We started out with Google Maps,

00:19:46: right?!

00:19:47: Google maps are basically the map for the public.

00:19:50: This is consumer application.

00:19:52: There's company behind it used to building consumer products But now in the digital twin industry, I see a lot of organizations building digital twins that are not used to creating consumer products.

00:20:05: They're usually as you said they create expert tools—the geoportals are expert tools.

00:20:10: if it's true and don't have this mindset.

00:20:13: It needs some shift for people who build digital twins really should be for public.

00:20:19: that they need to build a consumer product.

00:20:21: So it's not B-to-B, but as B-To-C when we put into the business terms and I don't see them happening yet or I don' t see right people driving in this direction.

00:20:34: maybe changes?

00:20:35: We're going shift gears from here because i also want quickly talk about the profession geospatial careers.

00:20:42: The profession is not well known.

00:20:45: I think, also noticed that when i studied geomatics myself When i tried to explain the people what they do They're always like What are you doing?

00:20:53: Geo-autosy!

00:20:54: What's that?

00:20:55: GIS?

00:20:55: Geoinformation systems?

00:20:57: People usually don't know this And You were also addressing with initiatives That your'e doing To bring new or younger generations To make them aware There are very exciting careers in these fields.

00:21:08: Can you share a little bit more about it?

00:21:10: Yeah, well we just had last week the it's called Action Day Geodeseme.

00:21:15: They do that once a year.

00:21:16: We started in different states of Germany and then Saxony.

00:21:19: they've just started Last Year to have it And its like an adventure day.

00:21:23: Kids are unrighted with their teachers... ...and we have different little stations, twenty little stations.

00:21:29: It is basically the geodyssey players That are there at universities The engineering officers and also administration.

00:21:41: And they present themselves, have little stands there to do whatever.

00:21:45: it's fun you know with the kids.

00:21:46: show them what geodesy is all about.

00:21:49: this really a great thing.

00:21:50: They like having a fun day figuring out What Geodesy Is.

00:21:55: You Know It's Flying A Drone Its Making A Map Its Kind Of A Geocaching Thing.

00:22:01: So This One Thing We Do Once A Year And Then We Also Have The Girls Day Like it's a German white initiative.

00:22:07: And for me, this is so important because I have two daughters myself and you know i did not get into a technical field like I became a journalist right?

00:22:16: And do we have kids that are good in math and my husband as an engineer?

00:22:21: So he kind of tries to tell them how interesting and exciting physics what they're not interested.

00:22:29: They liked languages and history at whatever which was good but they don't go into the technical field.

00:22:36: So it's just, I mean might be my daughters but this is the world that is right and girls for some reason kind of move around their technology a lot.

00:22:45: But they should know what they miss.

00:22:47: And This Is What The Girls Day Is All About.

00:22:48: And Girls Come By Themselves.

00:22:50: They Are Not Bored Or Sent But They Decide by Themself At Least In Dressing.

00:22:54: There Are I Don'T Know Hundreds Of Options Where You Can Go But It'S Really Important To Have That To have that event and even in our house.

00:23:02: I had to tell like people ask why do we only do goals?

00:23:05: Why don't you do boys day?

00:23:06: because it's a parallel thing.

00:23:07: And the idea is girls go to professions where they would not, You know Go through In the first place.

00:23:14: and then boys go two places Like kindergarten elementary school Whatever, you know places they would not consider to have a career in.

00:23:23: So we don't do boy state because the boys that come by themselves.

00:23:27: We have apprenticeships and our house It's also always a lot of boys.

00:23:31: if You Have The dual study program it's boys who apply which is great?

00:23:36: You Know it's great for every young person Who decides To go into geodesy and Geoinformatics.

00:23:42: But For me Is important to tell the girls its there And show them half a day in this case, how exciting it is.

00:23:52: We do have women you know we have engineers because in former times and GDR times It was much more common for women to Have a technical profession to become an engineer.

00:24:01: so they're there.

00:24:02: I mean that kind of retiring now but their still there.

00:24:05: So these are the role models.

00:24:06: And we do have some young woman?

00:24:08: This one night place at The Girls Day Tell them How Exciting it Is To Study Geomatics Which You Can Do In Dressin.

00:24:15: Right.

00:24:16: Why do you think this profession is actually very attractive for women?

00:24:20: besides of course the well-paid.

00:24:21: that's great but I think there are at least from me.

00:24:24: There're many more facets to his career did they?

00:24:28: i think it's actually for everyone very exciting.

00:24:31: how do you see this?

00:24:32: like had he communicated with girls?

00:24:33: what would be missing out if they don't choose to study?

00:24:36: this

00:24:36: is a very creative job.

00:24:38: You know that the mapping in former times like what I heard from colleagues and former times there The cartographers.

00:24:44: There was two women who became cartographer's.

00:24:47: they even studied under an apprenticeship And then the boys did the surveying And then they met at some point and the families were like cataracts.

00:24:54: It's funny, you can still do cartography in Dresden University but it kind of changed to Geomatics is now called Geomatic and became a used-to-be craft profession.

00:25:07: when that change into an IT profession its no computer science right?

00:25:12: This what did he do?

00:25:14: programming.

00:25:15: But idea behind this still visualize data visible to make it pretty at certain points.

00:25:22: you know if you have an attractive map.

00:25:24: You'd like the look of it and figure out what is behind that.

00:25:27: so it is a very creative profession which, I'm a creative person so i could've been a cartographer.

00:25:32: but there was thought about that would be interesting profession.

00:25:36: But we come back to the communication of the profession again, right?

00:25:39: I mean you said it's called Geomatics in Dresden and when i studied here at ETH.

00:25:43: It was also called Geomatics.

00:25:44: so i have a degree in geomatics.

00:25:46: but now couple years back ETH actually changed the name of the program.

00:25:51: its now called Spatial Engineering!

00:25:53: I like

00:25:53: that spatial engineering.

00:25:55: this really sounds interesting...and it sounds like oh what could this be?

00:26:00: wait?!

00:26:00: Could be

00:26:00: anything!!

00:26:01: And then- and try to get girls into it, get interested and show them what we do.

00:26:07: And then they either find that interesting or not right?

00:26:11: I can actually report from ETH.

00:26:12: They did see an increase of the students applying to it.

00:26:15: so i think helps in naming things really matters.

00:26:26: We'll wrap up here and now move on to our last part, which is the rapid fire questions.

00:26:31: All right?

00:26:32: Let's start with the first one.

00:26:33: so you are not a programmer but if you could rewrite any line of code in any product what would you do?

00:26:39: Maybe

00:26:40: make that geoportal Saxony a little more accessible.

00:26:43: So then even I know known only at first button to kick maybe find second That helps

00:26:50: perfect.

00:26:51: The second one is about allyship.

00:26:52: What do you think?

00:26:53: it's an everyday acts of allyshipped that anyone can do?

00:26:56: Well, I want women to actually make techniques and engineering attractive And It takes woman too To Do That Actually.

00:27:06: So my colleagues who are in the field They Are The Ones That Should Have Allyship To Get Girls Into Their Field And Make The Professional Attractive Because Its A Great Job.

00:27:18: Actually

00:27:20: Whose voices do you think tech or maybe the digital twin industry needs to hear more from?

00:27:25: Well, not only the tech people because they know what we're talking about.

00:27:30: But it also just needs politicians and needs all types of planners planning people mayors who make use off technology that is there

00:27:43: And then to wrap it up with listeners, remember just one thing from this whole conversation.

00:27:47: What should that be?

00:27:48: It would be

00:27:48: the GOSN or even the long name Landesamt für Geobasisinformation Sachsen!

00:27:58: Awesome.

00:27:58: thank you so much Dana for being on the podcast.

00:28:00: This was super interesting.

00:28:02: Thank You!

00:28:10: What a rich conversation with Dana here today.

00:28:15: What stuck with me is that communication when it comes to public participation, is really important.

00:28:21: When we bring technical topics or technical tools... ...to the attention of the public and I love how they do in Saxony with webinars They host events postcards, and also working together with journalists to bring out newspaper articles and press releases that are not actually focusing on the technical details.

00:28:41: They're not even using the technical terms but they try to translate so everybody understands – really inspiring!

00:28:49: The second thing that stuck with me is about the digital twin use cases.

00:28:55: I really loved the stories that Donna shared and how easy it seems to explain these, And she as a journalist was able tell those stories for the public in way they understand them.

00:29:08: In last but not least It's cool to see how with Girls' Days and other initiatives Dona and everybody else in the geospatial industry are trying profession more attractive for everybody to bring more women into the field.

00:29:23: And with that, I want thank you again for listening in.

00:29:28: this was our last episode of the season one of our podcast.

00:29:32: We're going to a little summer break now, and we'll be back soon with more conversations like these.

00:29:40: as always if you have any thoughts or ideas or comments on this podcast episode let us know in the comments or write us an email at podcastathellofiftyfifty dot.

00:29:51: world!

00:29:55: I also want to leave.

00:29:59: How often do you manage to shift the mindset from thinking about technical limitations or technical aspects of your product, more on how to communicate it with the general public?

00:30:15: Thank-you so much for tuning in and until next time.