Hackathons & Diverse Teams

00:00:00: People tend to go and want work with people who are the same, but we get a lot of comments.

00:00:06: After the event, I learned so much from my group.

00:00:08: There were people with different backgrounds that introduced me to new possibility in their fields.

00:00:12: We also had a guy who was like oh after i went into the hackathon and thought maybe should actually do my masters on this topic And more they're exposed to different things The better.

00:00:23: in some sense the Hackathon experience is.

00:00:25: it opens up there horizons In terms of education or future path etc.

00:00:29: But its not something naturally looking out for.

00:00:36: Welcome to Hello!

00:00:37: fifty-fifty world, the podcast where we break tech bubbles before they break us and when you talk about people who make tech more humane.

00:00:52: Today's conversation on The Hello!

00:00:53: Fifty-Fifty World Podcast is with Professor Dr Deborah Hevenstone.

00:00:58: Together with Oleg Lavrovskiy.

00:01:00: she spent years exploring how people collaborate our teams form in what helps create environments were a wider range of voices can contribute and thrive such as at hackathons.

00:01:11: I got to know Debra through Olig and our shared interest in hackathons, community building and creating more inclusive spaces than tech.

00:01:18: Today we'll talk about diversity in Hackathons team formation And what it takes to build technology communities where everyone has a chance To participate and contribute.

00:01:28: Let's dive in.

00:01:35: Welcome to the podcast Debra!

00:01:37: Thank

00:01:37: you so much.

00:01:39: You

00:01:39: have been part of the hack for social good organizer community.

00:01:43: For a while at Hello, Fifty-Fifty World we participated last year in Olten and I saw firsthand what makes this hackathon so special.

00:01:50: So you bring together people from the tech space with people from The Social Space?

00:01:55: Uh...you're actually professor in social policy At the Bernafah Hochschule .So how did come up With this concept ?

00:02:02: So This Actually came From my colleague Oliver Humberlein who also has known Oleg for many years And i was brought on because I have, you might say for school of social work a bit more technical statistical simulation background.

00:02:16: And they thought that there's digital needs in social work, and it's true that when we host a hackathon or you talk to social service organizations the needs they have are very diverse.

00:02:28: Some of them could've been filled by tech to be honest thirty-forty years ago!

00:02:33: And some that were modern cutting edge... It just seemed clear there needed to be brought into contact with mutual benefit from joint events.

00:02:42: Can these social organisations give examples on who is participating?

00:02:47: We've had Caritas several times.

00:02:50: I worked on a project from a care lever organization, so that tries children in foster care and the sort of gap as they enter adulthood—that was one of them.

00:03:01: Linda Hilfei who is also one of then.

00:03:03: we have like small organizations that are led by Like One or Two People As A Hobby to huge social service organizations.

00:03:10: It's been working internationally automatic translation and merging of surveys over like thirty languages.

00:03:17: So there's quite a gap, often right in the use of technology in these organizations because they're lacking the knowledge or also maybe the courage to jump in.

00:03:24: so this hackathon is for them a chance to get to know some other technologies as well.

00:03:29: For them, sometimes I feel like it feels very mysterious and bigger than it is.

00:03:34: They're often surprised by how easy and quickly a relevant solution can be found because they are so far from it.

00:03:41: So in some sense when i started working with hackathons ,I was nervous about the free use of labor.

00:03:48: but as I started to watch organizations .

00:03:51: I realized that its an information process for them That exposes what they could do encourages them to have future projects, so rather than replacing work I think it actually creates work.

00:04:03: And i also imagine the people from the tech field participating.

00:04:06: they must feel like their doing something with a lot of purpose right?

00:04:10: So this is interesting.

00:04:11: we've had big mixture In the first years, because it started with a school of social work.

00:04:17: We had more Social Work participants and it was socially affine tech people who were coming.

00:04:24: so people worked for SOTS info or People Who Had Already Switched to The Social Sector And They Were Looking For Sort Of A Voluntary Activity Where they Could Contribute.

00:04:34: Last Year My Colleague Maria Scone She Hosted It and she's in a School of IT.

00:04:39: Then we Had More IT Participants just about volunteering or giving back, but also a place in which they could showcase their skills and learn something.

00:04:49: And use some real-world applications.

00:04:51: so the motivation has differed depending on people who are recruiting.

00:04:55: Do you actually bring together two groups that quite different?

00:04:58: So from social field to tech people They're quite diverse group of people.

00:05:04: How do create groups for hackathons like this?

00:05:09: So this is something that's very problematic and was partly the motivation for a research project.

00:05:15: That I lead right now.

00:05:16: The first time that I was responsible in a twenty-twenty three four organizing the hack for social good We had a minority of tech participants, but not like a super minority.

00:05:27: It was like I think thirty five Thirty eight percentage of our participants And it was enough that we could have had Tech people on every team which everything needed.

00:05:35: But then They clustered and some of our teams had no tech people.

00:05:39: And then in our evaluation, after people complained... ...and also I have to say AI wasn't where it is today.

00:05:44: so they needed someone who could code in twenty-twenty three.

00:05:48: After that experience we're like okay this makes no sense!

00:05:50: We need somehow get engaged and create

00:05:53: mixing.".

00:05:54: You actually started developing an algorithm to form the team's more diverse fashion right?

00:06:01: Where did you also get your idea

00:06:02: from?".

00:06:04: a bit of crazy educational background.

00:06:08: And I did certificate in complex systems when it was doing my PhD at the University of Michigan, and knew something about matching

00:06:14: algorithms.".

00:06:16: So i talked to Oleg about the problems that I saw on our hackathon...and then he exposed me an algorithm they tested versus virus ...that have say programmed very quickly because had many more registrants than expected for online event.

00:06:30: And as soon as I looked at that algorithm, i could see it was going to suffer problems of what you call unraveling in the field.

00:06:38: That's when people want to match.

00:06:39: outside an algorithm.

00:06:41: It didn't really take into account preferences and so from my studies focus.

00:06:52: I know enough to know what the problem is and what a potential solution would be, but i brought in then Professor Marek from University of Zurich who's an economics to help work on the project on The Matching Algorithm.

00:07:04: it's like a deferred acceptance.

00:07:05: It's like uh combinatorial optimization problems.

00:07:08: So What happens if people match outside of an algorithm at a hackathon?

00:07:12: I mean its just a waste Of time.

00:07:14: so you saw in the surveys after the versus virus.

00:07:17: Is that well..I mean it was partially...the problem with the Hackathon Algorithm, ignoring preferences.

00:07:23: Partially it was a lot of no shows.

00:07:25: so teams were too small.

00:07:26: but basically what happened is that people showed up they online They had us suggested team and then they weren't happy with It.

00:07:33: And So Then they Had to spend A whole bunch Of time switching Talking Switching talking and we had like for an unsolicited question.

00:07:41: it Was a huge percentage of free text comments saying?

00:07:51: And so for the hack, for social good you took a bit of different approach to bring people into groups.

00:07:56: How did that work?

00:07:58: We did it in two stages.

00:08:00: as a researcher.

00:08:00: this is sort problematic but sense.

00:08:05: So first we used an algorithm where we asked people, what are their preferences for the different kinds of challenges they want to work on?

00:08:12: Of course a lot of hackathons have like when you can develop your own idea.

00:08:15: but in our format it was non-profits coming with ideas so that people could rank and then we optimized the mix of people to get there best preference And made this subject into certain constraints as well.

00:08:30: We started very simple.

00:08:33: When we talk to hackathon organizers, there's particular skills depending on the hackathon that they need.

00:08:39: Those come into some general categories like you almost always meet software coders sometimes data people almost always design People and often businesspeople.

00:08:48: And then depending There's like ones with social work or one is environment are once a lot Some kind of specialty expertise?

00:08:55: We try it again have a minimum of one person with each expertise.

00:08:59: but then because voluntary event, we didn't want to like you know... You can't force people to work with people they don't want too.

00:09:06: There's also a personal vibe and so then gave a period at the event where people could re-sort and stay with suggested team or not.

00:09:14: It was just suggesting that my university partner is not thrilled because it means our randomized control trial has very weak treatment, but in terms of running an actual hackathon I'm

00:09:38: actually a hackathon organizer myself.

00:09:40: I've organized two hackathons with Girls in Tech Switzerland at the time, and then in twenty-twenty-two we organize quite a big one And We used similar approach.

00:09:48: so this is super interesting to hear.

00:09:50: So we had also challenges from companies.

00:09:52: People signed up for the challenge Then tried put them together into diverse teams.

00:09:57: They have different skillsets available.

00:10:01: I also struggled a bit with this sort of.

00:10:02: how much can people decide and have their own choices reflected in the team formation?

00:10:08: And, How do you want to force them into diverse teams so that they could create more innovative solutions.

00:10:14: Did You experience that tension?

00:10:17: Yeah, I mean when we talked to other people like my co-organized and stuff a lot of people were very against it.

00:10:22: I have a colleague who i've published with at the Bay of Ha not to end this job And she was like well that's just wrong.

00:10:29: She was like you can't do That but I felt Like okay?

00:10:32: I've seen enough Of the survey results that People in some sense want that and We still see It.

00:10:38: I mean now I Have even more Survey Results.

00:10:40: because what At The End of Data Collection In Our Study And it's really like that.

00:10:44: There are a lot of teams that come together even in the group and they're, oh we could have used designer if there were control groups.

00:10:50: so I didn't get extra people.

00:10:51: They would've liked to design our group So...I think theres demand for but only so much.

00:10:59: That is why i went with this suggestion.

00:11:02: format

00:11:03: For the groups you formed?

00:11:06: What was the outcome?

00:11:08: what worked well maybe also challenging?

00:11:11: Okay, so this is an interesting question because we're only in the analysis phase of the project.

00:11:16: So I read all like the comments and then have interviews.

00:11:19: In terms as to statistics that just started And what would be called intermediate outcomes Like team size and skill mix.

00:11:28: Then end-end outcome How good was their product?

00:11:31: How did they experience teamwork?

00:11:33: Do make learn new things That kind of thing.

00:11:36: For the intermediate we have very good effects.

00:11:40: We can show that people have their preferred team size is the team size they were generally assigned to, people are dissatisfied with small teams and the algorithm avoided small teams.

00:11:52: so thats a good outcome.

00:11:54: On dimensions of diversity that we used, the teams where diverse.

00:12:00: One thing that keeps coming up in comments composition, one of these like intermediary variables I could say is it had come up in conversation.

00:12:09: if we want people to self assess competence.

00:12:12: which I was reluctant to do, you're talking about gender.

00:12:14: There's a lot of research that shows that women tend to lower rate their own confidence compared to men.

00:12:20: and i was like oh let's not do the self-assessed competence how would we put it in the algorithm?

00:12:25: but then we have a lot complaints from both sides.

00:12:28: people who felt they had low skill freeriders or low skilled people thought this wasn't fair with these different levels.

00:12:37: Then for the outcomes, there so far I have a lot of null effects.

00:12:41: So it's interesting and can show like effects on the interim stuff but not in the outcome stuff.

00:12:46: There is different potential reasons.

00:12:49: It might be a real thing because i'm just at the beginning of the analysis.

00:12:53: We haven't looked network development we haven't made indices learning team work But I could believe that it's maybe null results, because maybe just doesn't matter as much.

00:13:02: As we thought from the quality research.

00:13:05: or Maybe It's Because We Do This Round Of Like Where People Can Optionally Choose?

00:13:09: It Waters Down Any Effects Or Maybe Were Missing Important Dimensions In The Algorithm We're Using like this skill level our confidence.

00:13:17: so i guess i can answer this question a little better in six months.

00:13:21: perfect then will bring you back on.

00:13:23: So I'm curious, you mentioned the dimensions of diversity.

00:13:26: What kind of dimensions have used apart from gender or the skills where there are other things that were factored in?

00:13:32: Okay so this was a big conversation when we were setting up our algorithm...I was very interested for my work on hack for social good and really sticking with functional diverse to me.

00:13:42: yeah..so like can people code do they do design?

00:13:44: it seemed to be like clear need.

00:13:46: If you look at like the hackathon literature, there's a lot of focus on demographic or identity diversity.

00:13:53: Right?

00:13:53: Race gender and this kind of thing.

00:13:55: we didn't include that.

00:13:57: it was like a big discussion of whether we want to include.

00:14:01: I see issues around coming up in our qualitative results And i'm not sure It depends on what your goals are for hackathon, I would say.

00:14:12: Like there's a paper that is well known in the literature where they bring in older people and those older people are working on apps for older people.

00:14:18: so it kind of makes sense.

00:14:20: So you can have all sorts...I'm not sure if its always necessary whereas functional diversity i feel like is clear use to me.

00:14:30: And do also see effects were like the functional and demographic diversity.

00:14:34: They influence each other?

00:14:36: In the tech field For example prototypical male white that can code better and then designers tend to be rather women, did you also look at that?

00:14:47: You took the words out of my mouth with the designers.

00:14:50: So we haven't been able to see that.

00:14:52: I know those two roles are gender correlated But interestingly, in signing up for hackathons we always have too few designers.

00:15:01: And I don't know if it's because like a non-awareness of where their skills are needed.

00:15:06: or maybe women don't like competitive environments like that but when every challenge, it's like one of those core skills.

00:15:14: Yeah?

00:15:14: They want a coder and they wants someone who designs.

00:15:17: but we have the coders signing up and often don't have enough designers for each team.

00:15:22: so there is not some sort of negative gender dynamic more just lacking skill which might have to do.

00:15:28: I mean this is pure speculation with recruitment format like hackathon.

00:15:32: yeah actually had a meetup about hackathons recently.

00:15:36: something that did come out is term hackathon is maybe the branding hacking sounds like you have to be able to code, right?

00:15:43: There's also that term designer-thon or innovaton.

00:15:46: That it a bit more sort of scoot towards designers, so I found this interesting.

00:15:51: how we name things will impact who actually signs up,

00:15:55: right?".

00:15:56: I think its definitely the name but it's also thisathon and feeling of competition and prizes rather than collaborative experience plays into women's choice to participate.

00:16:10: I think that often, and we were talking before about your background in what you do professionally as a ge... And i was saying my favorite class at grad school is Geostatistics!

00:16:19: It was very interesting because it But all of the men were studying like mining and extraction.

00:16:27: And all of women, we're studying environmental

00:16:29: protection.".

00:16:30: They are doing exactly same statistics in class but with very different goals.

00:16:34: I think it's sort of the same thing when you talk about recruiting for something a hackathon If its competitive environment then naturally attract more man than woman Even though at end they would be doing exactsame work.

00:16:45: I want

00:16:46: to quickly come back the diverse groups that you formed with the algorithm.

00:16:51: What we sometimes also see, or what's often talked about is that diverse teams can struggle a bit in this friction because they may become from different backgrounds and have a different understanding of their problem or process.

00:17:03: Did You Also See This Friction In The Collaboration?

00:17:07: It's funny!

00:17:07: So i could talk about it exactly from the reverse perspective.

00:17:11: when a group is very homogenous We have one group that we see over and over at the hackathons.

00:17:17: That's a bunch of Turkish guys who work together, And one guy we did like along in depth interview with... ...and because their homogeneity there is no conflict when they worked well together.. ..and it's a repeat-group.

00:17:29: same cultural background I mean.

00:17:31: They're similar in that all are on IT but diverse.

00:17:34: each has its own specific role.

00:17:36: this guy was just back end so he's frontend.

00:17:38: they work efficiently know how to work together And so you would say the homogene makes them effective.

00:17:44: But then in an interview, is lacking diversity.

00:17:49: They say we need a Swiss person, we need frontman and someone who can communicate our results but cannot communicate what were doing.

00:17:55: so it's like this tension.

00:17:56: they work very smoothly together because of their homogeneity to create an effective product in communication that actually needs diversity.

00:18:05: I think there are these natural tensions that arises where people want to work with the people who have liked them sign up for team with people like them yeah ultimately to create good products or do something.

00:18:17: Maybe they mean a little bit more diversity.

00:18:19: Yeah, absolutely is that something you've also found through the research?

00:18:23: We don't have really good results so far on like the satisfaction with the product that they create.

00:18:29: but we have sort of comments from people that go in this direction if it makes sense.

00:18:36: So people actually enjoy working with diverse groups.

00:18:40: I'm not sure about that!

00:18:43: I think there's natural tendency...I mean its mixture.

00:18:46: So I think people tend to go and want work with the same, but we get a lot of comments.

00:18:52: After the event, I learned so much from my group.

00:18:55: There were people from different backgrounds that introduced me to new possibility in the fields.

00:18:58: We also had a different Turkish guy who was like oh after i went into the hackathon... ...I thought maybe I should actually do my masters in this topic.

00:19:05: And more they're exposed to different things The better and some sense the Hackathon experience is.

00:19:12: It opens up their horizons In terms of their education Their future path etc.

00:19:16: But it's not something that They are naturally looking out for.

00:19:21: Makes sense.

00:19:22: Now, I'd love to take sort of the things you've learned at Hackathons into kind of other environments like for example work environments and diverse teams.

00:19:31: whether some of the findings that do think we can translate into maybe detect field or just in general how teams work together?

00:19:39: This

00:19:39: is interesting because i think a lot about transferability but not into the office place But also creating teams all the time corporate worlds and academia is that when you form a team, there's very strong power dynamic.

00:19:57: Nobody goes to their boss or professor says like I hated the people who worked with why did they do it?

00:20:04: And one of the coolest things about hackathons was its rapid fire also volunteer environment.

00:20:11: so really get good feedback on whats working what not because if they're dissatisfied leaf or change teams, right?

00:20:21: So I think the hack to find is mostly a very good environment.

00:20:24: To test what makes a good team formation because a lot of the research on team formation it goes sort of like deductively Like What do we think We should wait in this index that's important for a Good Team and then they implement classroom And then ask their students from whom They're grading where you happy bad way to know if something is working.

00:20:48: And at a hackathon, you can really test around different kinds of things that you could put into your algorithm.

00:20:53: we did it very simply just with these skills and team size right now.

00:20:59: But of course, then there's going to be the question of generalizability.

00:21:02: Is a hackathon environment working?

00:21:04: The same as our corporate environment or school environment?

00:21:07: I couldn't imagine that in a hack-a-thon maybe you don't want a leader role and team And maybe even a corporate environment.

00:21:13: You do wanna lead on the teams To direct it with specific output.

00:21:17: Something did i also learn through this experience organizing the hacker from with girls in tech In twenty twenty two was we put people together into these diverse groups, but then we also made a little exercise at the beginning where they had to assign roles.

00:21:31: Like there was for example The Timekeeper and like... ...the person that would guide people through the process.

00:21:36: We have quite guided Is it something you feel is helping?

00:21:40: To not just a diverse group But also specific roles assigned?

00:21:44: Well, actually I'm very curious to flip the interview and ask you how that experience went because Olenck came to me and kept pushing for this kind of role.

00:21:51: To be in the algorithm And without any prior information beyond having organized a hackathon on it was very skeptical about what these roles meant?

00:22:00: We did not include it.

00:22:01: Actually can i ask You How Did It Go?

00:22:03: Of course yeah so I think Because The teams when they met They didn't know each other.

00:22:08: This is like the first exercise.

00:22:09: they had to do their choice.

00:22:13: And I think that really helped them because they had to open up about what they prefered do in a group right at the beginning and sort of share their preference, so it gave And I think it was not just the role assignment, but this whole like kind of icebreaker experience at the beginning that helped them create trust within the group.

00:22:38: Right?

00:22:39: and i Think It Helped and we got a lot Of positive feedback for this That even though We formed The groups This first exercise gave Them back A bit of agency as Like okay yeah now But Now We Can Organize The Group Ourselves.

00:22:51: That's Interesting!

00:22:52: I Guess It Would Depend On How You Define The Roles.

00:22:55: Something That Makes Me A Little Bit Nervous Or Skeptical is sort of the gender dynamics and kind roles that people take up I think women can often shy away from like a leadership or being in management role are so on.

00:23:08: I see that in my leg.

00:23:09: never use an algorithm by teaching but i see that might be changing group work.

00:23:14: i call sign group assignments and men will take over the control of the group and presentation.

00:23:20: And for like twenty years, I would say it's fascinating that competence is not gender distributed but equal distribution between men or women.

00:23:31: But willingness to take on a certain role has a definite gender bias.

00:23:36: We see this also in corporate contexts right?

00:23:38: Women tend You know, sort of organize things in the background.

00:23:44: We sometimes call this also the glue work.

00:23:46: that doesn't get a lot of visibility or is not used for promotion.

00:23:49: so I definitely see that as well.

00:23:51: but maybe it could be interesting to make people aware of that and take on some role.

00:23:55: you don't usually do because there's a hackathon environment.

00:24:03: Yes, I was about to say the random assignment of leadership roles is a very interesting thing.

00:24:17: Like I have a younger colleague who we're giving an assignment to and he was saying, i'm very shy.

00:24:21: And I said but the more you present of course The more comfortable your are presenting.

00:24:24: so it's good that You do this kind Of work?

00:24:38: And it's a nice opportunity to enter different roles, and its very low stakes opportunities for exploring those different roles.

00:24:44: So maybe that might be an interesting thing in the future project... ...to look at the random assignment of roles whereas I would never randomly assign skills!

00:24:53: Which is actually something that Oleg has talked about—that people have the chance….

00:24:56: …to develop new skills as a hackathon.

00:24:58: But i also see comments from our research where people are dissatisfied when someone comes in purely wanting to learn but can't contribute in particular skill For roles.

00:25:07: think that might be interesting.

00:25:08: Absolutely, I'd love to see how there goes!

00:25:11: Yeah no but i think it's definitely like that people come to Hackathons for different reasons and often they want to expand not just play at their strength.

00:25:22: I also want to quickly talk a bit beyond the team formation, when we talked about hackathons and making them more accessible.

00:25:30: And inclusive what have you seen?

00:25:31: A bit that hack for social good.

00:25:33: What are other things We can do too?

00:25:36: make them inclusive spaces?

00:25:37: Well so there's So many different dimensions.

00:25:40: It's like he said Team Formation is very small tiny thing Like once people in There how Do You get Them To mix?

00:25:46: but The first Thing Is Who's there?

00:25:48: So as I said at the beginning, when we were organizing more in social work schools.

00:25:51: We had more Social Work participants When IT school was organizing and more IT participants.

00:25:57: so our whole recruitment process is something that makes it inclusive And this thing i would like to do is recruit more designers.

00:26:04: Also, as a mother myself it was very important to me the first year that I organized.

00:26:33: paid for our parallel child program.

00:26:35: And a whole bunch of people actually came with their kids, and I think she did a great job Marta from Ginkgo Educa!

00:26:41: Actually...I don't know where they were showing up but the kid started to show in the middle of an event?

00:26:45: They're bringing children into the scientific children's program who weren't at the

00:26:48: hackathon?!

00:26:50: Anyways so anyways i thought that was a

00:26:51: success!!

00:26:52: For two years they didn't do it at the Hack for Social Good which is very disappointing core piece, but then when we went back to female leadership because it was two years under male leadership and Maria took over last year.

00:27:06: Although she's an IT system woman She was like We have to have um the parallel child program And she brought her back in last year and my daughter participated.

00:27:14: It was good Was hard for her cause.

00:27:15: he wasn't in French and she doesn't really speak french.

00:27:16: But I think maybe a third thing that's Really changing rapidly is The first time someone came To me and was Like we could do A no code hackathon.

00:27:25: Somebody from source info said That to us hackathon, you have to produce code.

00:27:31: Now with AI I think it's very realistic not having a no-code hackathon but an AI assistant helping you code and so that has really changed what can be done at Hackathon.

00:27:44: When I first helped with Hack for Social Good in twenty twenty when Ali was organizing we need about forty percent tech participants.

00:27:52: And now when I talk about digital solutions, it's almost like it flips.

00:27:56: That technology is still important but you have an AI coder that can also do a lot for and the domain knowledge is increasingly important.

00:28:05: You touched on so many things.

00:28:06: The recruitment was the first one and then making it inclusive with child care, we actually also did that at our hackathon in twenty-twenty two We had someone coming looking after kids who didn't have this program.

00:28:17: I love not just having them taking care of their kid but they do something in parallel that is connected to it.

00:28:24: So really cool you did That!

00:28:26: It's sometimes quite a bit work for an organiser To offer that But i think its always worth it And i agree with your discreetness.

00:28:34: And then the last one, AI.

00:28:35: Of course we have to sort of touch on that a little bit later on.

00:28:39: I want it come back to the recruitment.

00:28:41: so for our hackathon as well We also wanted to recruit diverse people and i think there's Also some transferability To the corporate world here.

00:28:49: So tech companies also wanna recruit diverse People.

00:28:52: and so I Want to ask you?

00:28:54: Also from your perspective or Your experience in academia As Well What do You Think Is Actually Something That Helps bring diverse people on board or that they're even interested.

00:29:06: I mean, so this is very difficult.

00:29:08: our research project has two various sort of parallel somewhat unrelated streams.

00:29:14: one is the matching algorithm and diversity at the event which we've been talking about.

00:29:19: but there's a product in school for social work because it's also a project about labor market integration helping high-skill refugees find jobs.

00:29:27: And in that stream of our research project, we planned to use sort open civic hackathons.

00:29:35: as well, as corporate hackathons.

00:29:37: In part because one of our partners power coders home show.

00:29:41: you know.

00:29:41: they said to me at the beginning when we were developing a project They went like okay with these civic events where are the jobs?

00:29:46: And I was like ok that's good point.

00:29:48: What do see is that companies come to Civic Hackathons and propose challenge in hosting those challenges so people can see their work coming out of these events.

00:30:02: I mean, we see people getting paid jobs which is like the best case but also so you can see people continuing to work for free post-event with a hope that maybe this will turn into a job.

00:30:13: what do have mixed feelings about?

00:30:15: So companies organizing or participating in civic hackathons they must have some sort finding people for jobs.

00:30:24: But the job market at the moment is also a bit difficult in general, right?

00:30:28: So there's not a lot of companies looking to hire new people.

00:30:32: I mean AI has its role as well and would you still recommend for people use hackathons to find jobs or this changing?

00:30:43: In some sense only because more expensive hackathon are they can get into it but actually think that good.

00:30:49: I think that people, you're right because of AI there's like less recruitment and the corporates go to hackathons for recruitment.

00:30:57: but they also go to Hackathons see what can be done in terms if their product?

00:31:03: And i feel like is an even more positive environment now with recruitment with AI.

00:31:08: Because with AI basic coding skills really good coders, probably better than IAA.

00:31:13: But basic coding skills you have automated but like creativity and good solutions you don't.

00:31:20: And what i've seen from the corporate hackathons compared to civic hackathones You have a lot of freedom for creativity in innovative solutions.

00:31:28: at these civic hackadans There's just more room even when an idea is sponsored by a firm.

00:31:34: And I think that's really nowadays where you need to shine, To get an idea?

00:31:38: I think ten years ago You had to shine That you were good coder.

00:31:41: But now if you can show that you have An understanding of like design in the market and what's needed In creative solutions Those are The things that Get you A job!

00:31:49: And i feel Like a hackathon Is Really very well suited for Showing those skills.

00:31:53: actually

00:31:54: I also Think it was a lot Of fun right...to go into a Hackathon and sort of Work on our project Outside your normal bubble.

00:32:00: It's also a way to break it out of your bubble and get inspired, or even if you're looking for new challenge.

00:32:06: Or like in the fields that enter can be nice ways to tap your toes into it right?

00:32:10: That

00:32:10: is interesting because there are differences between personal experience.

00:32:13: from professional experience.

00:32:14: In our research lot of participants look at different people.

00:32:18: Actually we got lots comments about that.

00:32:20: I remember one comment.

00:32:21: he was pure uber rostigrab.

00:32:25: The linguistic areas across and disciplinary areas were crossed and exciting, interesting on a personal level as well as professional levels to expand.

00:32:37: You also touched a little bit.

00:32:38: sometimes people are being exploited at Hackathons for free work or unpaid work with companies that have challenges where they then take the ideas.

00:32:47: how do you see this sort of legal aspect?

00:32:50: I

00:32:52: mean it is such a gray zone and I see a lot of different perspectives.

00:32:57: So the actual work that is produced at a hackathon, I feel much more positive about it.

00:33:01: not so exploitive because even if you have working prototype its just beginning right?

00:33:08: And usually especially in our event i see projects come out from hackathons.

00:33:13: then they know what to do how many hours we need for them.

00:33:17: Then project starts!

00:33:18: Right?!

00:33:23: But the unpaid project work post hackathon, where they continue to work on it for free is a little bit problematic in my mind.

00:33:32: So actually we have SEM as a funder for our projects and they had some money from Hackathons and power coders hosting a ten year university hackathon which I want you check out.

00:33:41: go too i think its November anyways.

00:33:43: so sum of the SEM money that decided to invest in...I wouldn't call like prototype funds but prize-winning team work that wants to be continued, the prize will be to fund that work.

00:33:56: And I think that's better because then people are paid for their work and they can present a final product from limited time period project work to the challenge host, which gives them more interaction also with an employer.

00:34:11: I mean maybe if they don't even get a permanent job there that employer has now seen what these people can do and they have their professional networks.

00:34:18: oh we had six weeks of projects funded by this fund post hackathon in.

00:34:22: this guy was great.

00:34:23: then it continues from there.

00:34:25: so i really want money coupled with prizes, not just a money prize to go on vacation but for continued project work.

00:34:34: I think that's important.

00:34:35: also it solves the problem of...I mean i guess this is classic and don't want be redundant what everybody knows.

00:34:41: But post hackathon you have a lot code graveyards And having done The Hack For Social Good Enough Years I see very similar challenges coming from different organizations where their solution is tailored And if they could make a generalizable solution, that's also more marketable than the solution for one specific firm.

00:35:01: So when we have a prize that is paid project work after coming out of Akron, I think it will be more likely to get our real product and not something so specific.

00:35:11: It's better for their products or participants?

00:35:15: This was great!

00:35:16: I love this idea... I want come back to AI because what fascinates me about the possibilities today is that often hackathons are very limited in time.

00:35:29: We have like two days, maybe three days and AI can really speed up the process of creating a first viable prototype And I think there we might actually see at Hackathons much more sophisticated solutions coming out.

00:35:42: For me, the most exciting part about AI is not just the speed but the breadth of hackathons.

00:35:47: And I actually think that the hackathon format opens up even more compared to many sectors and in our interviews with people who have very solid professional skills law, policy interior design whatever.

00:36:00: those people have almost no chance of getting into their labor market.

00:36:05: And as you have AI I think there's more and more chances to have like domain specific events that can bring people together and you can take some of the non-tech positive aspects about learning mixing project work.

00:36:20: It can become a tool that's even broader because of AI.

00:36:23: So I actually think it is very promising and funny for me, always listening to people so negative about AI in loss-of-jobs And i guess some bit more than optimist.

00:36:38: Well wrap up here and jump over the rapid fire.

00:36:41: questions are you ready?

00:36:43: I'm ready!

00:36:43: Awesome

00:36:44: all right we start with our first one.

00:36:46: You're not coder but if could rewrite line of coding any product or your choice what would be?

00:36:51: Okay, so this one kind of shows my age but I don't have like an Apple watch or smartwatch.

00:37:20: bring it to my device for jogging.

00:37:23: This drives me crazy, and is just one light of code.

00:37:25: how to save the

00:37:26: file."

00:37:27: Awesome!

00:37:28: I love that all right?

00:37:30: And we'll touch on Allyship.

00:37:32: what do you think as a one everyday act of Allyshop anyone can

00:37:35: do?".

00:37:36: I like to mean this something in social work.

00:37:38: they're thinking about all.

00:37:39: I think this is the fault of tech and social media, that everyone spends a lot time talking and advocating.

00:37:47: And feeling like they're doing something just by talking?

00:38:09: Falls feeling they're doing something by talking and if they did something like super small, even just cleaning up the playground before you go it would have so much more impact.

00:38:19: Awesome yeah walking to talk I love that.

00:38:21: And then whose voices do you think tech needs to hear from?

00:38:25: This was an interesting question for me, because in some sense I feel like compared to many fields you can criticize tech but i think it's open in terms of voices.

00:38:34: compare too many fields.

00:38:36: And I think products could become better and teamwork becomes better with certain kinds of diversity the dimensions we've talked about.

00:38:44: But the problems in Tech are not really ultimately about diversity or voices.

00:38:49: they're just more alternative models public digital infrastructure, open source projects cooperatives initiatives like a purchase AI.

00:39:00: I think it's really institutional and when i interview refugees...I mean the refugees just want the same things that people in tech have right now.

00:39:09: they want opportunity success influence money and they should of course have the chance to have those things.

00:39:14: but them getting the chance To Have Those Things won't have any impact on the structural negatives That are in Tech today.

00:39:22: We touch on so many things, but if listeners just remember one single thing from this whole conversation.

00:39:27: What should it be?

00:39:28: I guess that like building good teams isn't just about diversity But balancing sort of preferences skills inclusions and not all diverse teams may be improved.

00:39:38: participation experience in products And those things are All very important and serve the focus of like.

00:39:44: our research and project are probably not due to lacking diversity alone.

00:39:51: They're more about incentives and institutions.

00:39:55: Awesome!

00:39:55: Thank you so much, Deborah for being on the podcast.

00:39:57: this was amazing thank

00:39:59: you.

00:39:59: it's fun to be here.

00:40:07: another really fascinating conversation with Debra today on hackathons.

00:40:12: I really love the hack for social good at the intersection of social organizations or social challenges and technology, in that there's still a lot potential to find solutions.

00:40:23: Also interesting is people naturally gravitate towards what they already know when they form teams on their own.

00:40:32: But when they are being put into diverse teams, they do really enjoy learning from those bringing in different perspectives.

00:40:39: And if they're missing the diversity and their teams that you notice an I do feel it.

00:40:44: and people join hackathons for various different reasons but is often because they want to expand there skill sets expand their knowledge on so its great to see that with diverse team they might actually then be really learning much more.

00:40:59: There's also all the other factors that are important to create inclusive spaces such as the recruitment process, making sure you do have a diverse pool to pick from and also offering options like childcare.

00:41:13: or a kids program in parallel so everybody can join.

00:41:17: I also think the piece on AI was interesting that potentially, they use of AI at Hackathons will make it more accessible and allow us to create more specialized hackathons which people can shine who are not necessarily coders.

00:41:33: Thank you all so much for tuning in today and listening to this conversation.

00:41:37: As always, if you know someone we're always appreciative of forward to a friend can find more information about Deborah and her work in the show notes.

00:41:47: And If you want to give us some more eloquent feedback than just a comment You can always message us at podcast ad hello fifty fifty dot world In the teams that you've worked, either in the corporate world or maybe when we're studying.

00:42:09: how diverse were these groups and if they weren't diverse what kind of dimension of diversity?

00:42:16: where are you missing there?

00:42:17: Thank you so much for tuning-in.

00:42:19: And until next time!